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SaxoTrump Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Nov 2010 Posts: 270 Location: Eastern Europe
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Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:13 pm Post subject: Red Rot occurrence correlation with most obvious factors |
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I used to hunt for vintage (from approx 1930's up to 1970's) inexpensive but solid horns on eXay (censored) as my hobby in the past. Not any longer.
What I found: regardless of obvious signs of storage conditions and trumpet playtime wear Red Rot was mostly a random factor.
For instance, once I got a Conn 15B (your famous "Director") - a closet horn that looked brand new, unused with shiny valve pistons.
To my regret there were a few definitive spots of the red rot 7 to 8 inches from the receiver down the leadpipe. Those spots could easily be felt on the inside of the leadpipe as well.
Other time I got a totally neglected and oxidized Band instrument Olds Ambassador, with frozen slides (but surprisingly almost no dents) that on thorough examination and later after cleaning turned out to be completely Red Rot free. This one was played quite a lot according to the valve pistons broken in look.
I had similar cases in either category but I never could relate any factors (degree of usage and storage conditions being most obvious ones) to the presence or absence of Red Rot.
Complete mystery to me. |
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wilder Veteran Member
Joined: 27 Jun 2020 Posts: 341 Location: NYC
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Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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A horn with high quality brass (copper content) with regular cleaning will have no red rot compared to cheap brass that has not been maintained properly. jw |
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SaxoTrump Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Nov 2010 Posts: 270 Location: Eastern Europe
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Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:39 am Post subject: |
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There are normally 3 grades of brass used in trumpet manufacture:
- Regular yellow 70/30 copper to zinc contents
- "Gold" = 85/15 copper/zinc
- "Rose" = 90/10 copper/zinc
Most average trumpets are made from the "low copper" (it's all relative) yellow brass.
The two student horns (Conn and Olds) I've mentioned above were made at approx the same time and experienced completely different usage time and storage conditions.
The end result in respect to their Red Rot resistance was completely unexpected and inverted in terms of common logic.
I've seen this many a time.
I suspect that it depends more on the particular specimen of a given horn make and model (and maybe specific run of the production period) rather than on the make and model itself. |
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dr-pepp Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 May 2004 Posts: 541 Location: Austin TX
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Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:01 am Post subject: |
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Having bought (and sold) a lot of horns on-line, red rot can be a real crap shoot. The higher copper content is an obvious factor, since I've never seen red rot in a gold brass leadpipe, but some brands/eras seem to be more susceptible. Olds Ambassadors in general don't have a problem (although as student horns, they may not have been as well cared for) but Olds Supers and Mendez models seem to have more prevalence of red rot.
Frequently, even with some coaching, inexperienced sellers can't spot it.
I love Benge trumpets, but seems like half of them have red rot in the leadpipe. Bachs seem to be fairly susceptible as well. I've see this fairly often on both vintage and newer Bachs. Schilkes and Yamahas don't seem to be as affected.
I share your frustration. Second to leaky valves, red rot can be the biggest problem on a used horn if you ever plan to sell it. Best way to avoid red rot on a used horn you are buying is to inspect it in person or buy from a reputable seller. _________________ Clay Collins
Owner, Centex Brass
www.centexbrass.com
also administrator of Olds Central
www.olds-central.com |
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Divitt Trumpets Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2015 Posts: 519 Location: Toronto
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Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2020 6:14 am Post subject: |
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wilder wrote: | A horn with high quality brass (copper content) with regular cleaning will have no red rot compared to cheap brass that has not been maintained properly. jw |
High quality brass has nothing to do with copper content.
Most trumpets are yellow brass, which is 70% copper.
Red/gold/rose is higher, at around 85%.
This does not mean that red brass is a higher quality brass.
Maintenance and the player are the biggest factors to redrot. _________________ www.divitt-trumpets.com
www.facebook.com/divitt.trumpets
www.instagram.com/divitttrumpets |
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yourbrass Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2011 Posts: 3619 Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2020 8:03 am Post subject: |
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I would agree w/Divitt about the player being the biggest factor. Some people's chemistry eats zinc, and will cause the dreaded rot. Add in not cleaning the horn on a regular basis, and that's when the metal will deteriorate. _________________ "Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/ |
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krax Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Apr 2007 Posts: 680 Location: Hofors, Sweden
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Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2020 8:10 am Post subject: |
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Some brands and models seem to be more vulnerable than others, that is true, but as said above, the player is the key. Some people just have a saliva that triggers red rot more than others. If that is due to drinking and eating habits or just plain saliva genetics, well that's a question for other people to answer, but it's probably a combination, as always.
Still, good maintenance, care and some oil in the leadpipe now and then prevent it. |
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SaxoTrump Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Nov 2010 Posts: 270 Location: Eastern Europe
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Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2020 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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Good point regarding maintenance (cleaning and giving the horn a regular bath) regardless of a player's saliva acidity.
Thanks for reminding me of that. |
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Manuel de los Campos Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2004 Posts: 649 Location: Amsterdam, the Netherlands
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Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2020 8:45 am Post subject: |
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dr-pepp wrote: | Schilkes and Yamahas don't seem to be as affected.
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Obviously you didn't check a lot of older Yamaha horns _________________ Technology alone is a poor substitute for experience. (Richard Sachs) |
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deleted_user_687c31b New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0
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Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2020 10:14 am Post subject: |
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SaxoTrump wrote: | Good point regarding maintenance (cleaning and giving the horn a regular bath) regardless of a player's saliva acidity.
Thanks for reminding me of that. |
Second that. I used to be a bit indifferent about things like valve oil and cleaning, but having recently noticed the difference it can make I now regularly oil the valves, swab the leadpipe after playing and brush my teeth before playing. Hopefully it'll ensure my Olds will be playable for another 50 years. |
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