Tuning the picc ALSO when to adjust a tunable bell

ayryq

I'm posting to discuss my frustration with getting my piccolo trumpet in tune. Can anyone share their process?

This is a tunable-bell horn also with an adjustable leadpipe. I'm mainly using the A pipe. Why should I pull the bell instead of just adjusting from the leadpipe?

While there's a ring on the third valve slide, it's not really adjustable while playing. So I'm trying to pre-set the 4th and 3rd slides to get best pitch with some fingering on every note. The first valve slide has a little bit of wiggle room too; I've got it very slightly pulled out at the moment (again, in A).

So is there some sort of procedure I can use. E.g. "first tune open G, then adjust 1st valve slide for F, then 3rd slide for E♭..." or something? I can't ever seem to get intonation to work across the range.

Once we've got it in tune, maybe someone can share the contortions necessary for getting water out of the thing

Thanks
Eric
_________________
Yamaha YTR6345HGS Bb
Bach "Philly" C
Bach 239 Eb/D
DEG Signature 2000 Bb/A picc
Yamaha YTR-9835 Bb/A picc
Yamaha Bobby Shew flugel
Yamaha Neo cornet

nltrumpet · Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2020 1:01 pm Post subject:

Sounds like an interesting horn. Closest comparison I can give you is my Conn 80A, where its designed to be tuned after the valve section, and you pull the "main" tuning slide to switch between A and Bb.

I think what you should try is pushing the "A" slide all the way in, and tune with the bell. It may or may not work the same leaving the bell in place and doing the same with the Bb pipe, but it sounds like you don't use the Bb pipe much anyways so its worth a shot.

ayryq · Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2020 1:14 pm Post subject:

Christian K. Peters · Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2020 1:34 pm Post subject: Tuning the picc

Hello,
I was going to ask what pic you had, but then saw it in you sig line. So trumpets are compromise instruments and the higher the key, the wonkier some can be. I have been able to some degree, alter tuning with different backbores on my mp. I usually play a Warburton so I can change out backbore tapers. That being said, not all intonation are completely perfect, but I am not a pro player. The orchestra guys seem to have no problem, though I bet they say even they have challenges on different horns. I started with a Yamaha custom in 1976. I seemed to need to use alternative fingerings for some notes. I bought my P5-4 in 1980. I did not need to use as many alternates...depending on the key and work. I have played Getzen and a long bell Yamaha. I would say keep playing your pic until you get to be a better player than the horn and look for another brand. Try as many as you can, then shell out the dough. You get what you pay for on those money horns.
_________________
Christian K. Peters
Schilke Loyalist since 1976

Lawler Bb · Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2020 1:38 pm Post subject:

I have the same piccolo. The advantage is to be able to tune the response, resistance, articulations, and just have more wiggle room. Same advantages as a tuning bell Bb, C, Eb, etc.

My 3rd valve slide ring works fine.....I use it to tune low Ds. Have you tried very heavy grease (like Ultra-Pure Heavy)? My slide binds with typical slide grease/gel.

I tune my horn (with the lead pipe and bell) to get the Cs, Gs, and Fs in tune, then adjust the slides for the little stuff. I adjust the 4th slide to get my low F (concert D) in tune.

These horns play pretty well in tune, and funny thing is, I'm using my Bb pipe for playing on the A side. It's not ideal, but mine didn't come with one when I bought it used. Someday I will have one made, but until then, it works!
_________________
Eric Sperry
www.ericsperry.com
www.facebook.com/EricSperryTrumpet/
www.instagram.com/milwaukeetrumpet/

Craig Swartz · Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:26 pm Post subject:

FWIW- it's a good idea to pull the 1st and 3rd valve slides a bit when playing in A- all the way in works fine in Bb but it's same difference (well, probably half of it) as pulling the stop rod assembly on some of my old Bb/A cornets when playing in A. (Yanking the tuning slide also kicks out the 1st, 2nd and 3rd valve slides as well.) Longer open horn via A pipe or lengthening the bell (?) requires a bit longer valve slides in A. Haven't seen a pic with an adjustable 2nd valve slide.

That was the nice thing when I finally gave up my original Selmer pic and used a Kanstul (Besson) P5-4 copy. There were so many alternate fingerings required on the A side that it wasn't a lot of fun to play even if the tone quality was nice. The P5-4 I've been playing now for 30 years is very good in the intonation dept but I do pull the 1st and 3rd slides when going to A. Good luck.

HaveTrumpetWillTravel

spitvalve · Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2020 7:28 pm Post subject:

My pic was frighteningly out of tune using a regular shank trumpet mouthpiece. I found a Warburton short shank trumpet backbore on eBay but contacted Warburton before buying it. Terry confirmed it was a one-off made for piccolo. I bought it and my intonation has improved a lot, even though I have to pull the leadpipe out a little more. I don't know why it works but it works.
_________________
Bryan Fields
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1991 Bach LR180 ML 37S
1999 Getzen Eterna 700S
1979 Getzen Eterna 895S Flugelhorn
1969 Getzen Capri cornet
Eastlake Benge 4PSP piccolo trumpet
Warburton and Stomvi Flex mouthpieces

dstpt · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1284

ayryq · Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2020 9:03 am Post subject:

Thank you all for the helpful replies, especially those of you who own this exact horn. I worked a little with my teacher on this yesterday and I think it's mostly a matter of spending more time on it, centering, and "believing the tuner" as dstpt pointed out. He also told me to quit using 4th valve for low G/F#; that I was playing those notes too low anyhow. Which frees up that slide for tuning D and C#.
I'll have to try some different grease on the third slide—it wants to rock up ever so slightly when I apply pressure on the ring, causing it to bind.

I also just put an order in with Pickett for a Bb leadpipe, so I'll have a matching set of Blackburn pipes.
_________________
Yamaha YTR6345HGS Bb
Bach "Philly" C
Bach 239 Eb/D
DEG Signature 2000 Bb/A picc
Yamaha YTR-9835 Bb/A picc
Yamaha Bobby Shew flugel
Yamaha Neo cornet

Riojazz · Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2020 9:51 am Post subject:

I have a Schilke P5-4 and love the Blackburn A pipe with it. However, the Blackburn Bb pipe would not allow me to get up to pitch. They said I should get a short shank mouthpiece. I did not do that; I use the original pipe instead for the rare times I play it in Bb.
_________________
Matt Finley https://mattfinley.bandcamp.com/releases
Kanstul 1525 flugel with French taper, Shires Bb Destino Med & C trumpets, Schilke XA1 cornet, Schagerl rotary, Schilke P5-4 picc, Yamaha soprano sax, Powell flute. Sanborn GR66MS & Touvron-D.

dstpt · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1284

ayryq · Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2020 7:15 am Post subject:

I had been using Hetman 4 "tuning slide oil," same as I was using on the 1st and 3rd slides on my big horns. I cleaned it well and tried Hetman 7 "tuning slide grease" and counter-intuitive as it seemed to me, this did the trick. It's not "fast" but it moves just fine with the pinky ring. Pulling it back in is harder especially if you move it a little too far, but I'm experimenting with placing my ring finger on the end of the slide to push it back.

Side note for other DEG owners; I have a number stamped in the fourth valve slide, wondering if this has any significance or if yours have a number there. Mine says "402".
_________________
Yamaha YTR6345HGS Bb
Bach "Philly" C
Bach 239 Eb/D
DEG Signature 2000 Bb/A picc
Yamaha YTR-9835 Bb/A picc
Yamaha Bobby Shew flugel
Yamaha Neo cornet

jimspeedjae · Veteran Member Joined: 05 Apr 2013 Posts: 165

Got mine down for the first time in a while...I think it's a great pic.

Third valve slide still nice and smooth with the ring - I'm fairly certain I'll have used Hetman 5 or 6 on it. Only sticks when it's nearly on the way off the slide - maybe I'll add a stop on it sometime, but it doesn't get anywhere near out that far when I play it.

No number stamped on the slide that I can see.

ayryq · Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2020 7:57 am Post subject:

_________________
Yamaha YTR6345HGS Bb
Bach "Philly" C
Bach 239 Eb/D
DEG Signature 2000 Bb/A picc
Yamaha YTR-9835 Bb/A picc
Yamaha Bobby Shew flugel
Yamaha Neo cornet

jimspeedjae · Veteran Member Joined: 05 Apr 2013 Posts: 165

Ah! Now I see it, though mine's a bit more discreet than yours.

Mine just has 2 followed by a small 0 - wouldn't be surprised if someone picked up a lower case letter "o" by mistake.

No correlation to the serial number of the instrument.

ayryq · Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2020 8:42 am Post subject:

Lawler Bb · Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:21 am Post subject:

ayryq · Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:27 am Post subject:

jimspeedjae · Veteran Member Joined: 05 Apr 2013 Posts: 165