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Valve compression question



 
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ChuckK
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2020 6:43 am    Post subject: Valve compression question Reply with quote

Is there any way to check valve compression on an instrument with stuck valve slides?
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zaferis
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2020 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trying not to come off too snarky.. but what are the reasons for stuck slides: poor manufacturing, lack of care, or injury. How about getting the slides to work properly - then worry about compression?
If there's a vacuum pop when you pull the slides - you'll have a sense of the compression.
Maybe the compression of the valves is the last thing that needs attention, kind of a rare and unusual starting point of concern....
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2020 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Use an extra heavy oil on the pistons - so valve action is sluggish, that oil will be a good seal to simulate a 'tight valve job'.
Do simple playing using all the valve combinations, and try to detect any changes.
If you think there 'might be' an improvement, then wrap 5 $100 bills around the valve casings and try again ...
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ChuckK
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2020 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

zaferis wrote:
Trying not to come off too snarky.. but what are the reasons for stuck slides: poor manufacturing, lack of care, or injury. How about getting the slides to work properly - then worry about compression?
If there's a vacuum pop when you pull the slides - you'll have a sense of the compression.
Maybe the compression of the valves is the last thing that needs attention, kind of a rare and unusual starting point of concern....


Well, in trying to evaluate a used instrument that I might be interested in buying, I'd like to know the condition. If the slides are stuck then that means about a hundred in repair bills to clear them, plus a chem cleaning would be wise. That might be OK if the horn is worthing of owning and playing, but if the valves are 'wobbly' that's about another $500 in repair and puts the whole thing out of bounds financially.
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zaferis
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChuckK wrote:
zaferis wrote:
Trying not to come off too snarky.. but what are the reasons for stuck slides: poor manufacturing, lack of care, or injury. How about getting the slides to work properly - then worry about compression?
If there's a vacuum pop when you pull the slides - you'll have a sense of the compression.
Maybe the compression of the valves is the last thing that needs attention, kind of a rare and unusual starting point of concern....


Well, in trying to evaluate a used instrument that I might be interested in buying, I'd like to know the condition. If the slides are stuck then that means about a hundred in repair bills to clear them, plus a chem cleaning would be wise. That might be OK if the horn is worthing of owning and playing, but if the valves are 'wobbly' that's about another $500 in repair and puts the whole thing out of bounds financially.


Ask that question then... Thicker oil on the valves-does it play differently/better.? Do you like the sound, intonation, brand/reputation? Then, you're taking your chances on overhaul costs.. good luck
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Beyond16
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2020 5:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Valve compression question Reply with quote

ChuckK wrote:
Is there any way to check valve compression on an instrument with stuck valve slides?


Easy. Plug the bell with a rubber ball and pressurize the horn with your mouth. See how slowly the air leaks out. Compare the result to a different horn. Repeat with all valves closed.
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Bflatman
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2020 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sealing the bell with a rubber ball is the way to go.

Blowing into the instrument with all valves depressed then mimics the compression test.

I now offer a word of caution.

A valve compression test is only useful if you already know whether you prefer or need looser or tighter valves.

No instrument can be pressurised without a rubber ball stuffed in the bell therefore the trumpets ability to hold compression demands that it be rendered unplayable.

Some players prefer tight valves some prefer looser valves.

As a blues musician I much prefer looser valves. Having said that I dont have an instrument with loose valves so I have to put up with valves that are tighter than my preferred ideal.

The only real measure of whether the valves are acceptable is how it plays and the ease with which you can achieve musically what you need to do.

What to look for is note pitch centering, does the note center strongly or is the note slippery and require good control to play each note on pitch.

I have seen an instrument with valves so loose that full octave glissades are ridiculously easy to perform just by lipping but playing a tune that is recognisable is ridiculously difficult to do.

The offending instrument was a cornet made around 1870 by an unknown builder and it is not known if this instrument ever had remotely tight valves.

It has to be said that old instruments with no finger ring or thumb saddle need loose valves.

Many old instruments have fixed slides that can be adjusted once at the beginning of play and they have no adjustment ring or saddle so lipping notes is demanded during play or you cannot play in tune for those notes that demand an extended slide.

In other words if you have an old instrument with no finger ring or thumb saddle it was designed to have looser valves and be lippable to have good intonation.

Giving such an instrument a valve job can destroy its usefulness and also its flexibility and gives it intonation problems.

For me only the music matters be driven by the music and how easy it is to perform the way you need to.

I know of one pro quality player who was seduced by a low compression test and well meaning advice to have a valve job done and he loved the instrument before the valve job but could not play the instrument to anything like the standard he was capable of after the valve job.

In other words he ruined the instrument with the valve job.

Make your decision after extensively playing the instrument and know what a valve job will give you and what it will take away.
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James Becker
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my view, worn leaking valves are equivalent to badly worn steering ball joints. Slippery pitch center to me is much like too much lash in your steering wheel. How well your instrument tracks is not so different than a car that drifts when your steering is no longer tight. Immediacy of response is reduced due to the loss of efficiency. There are other places in the bore, i.e. reduced mouthpiece receiver gap or larger bell tapers that contribute a wider pitch center without having leaking valves. These are part of an instrument’s over all design, and can exist with valves that are airtight.

Though not a cornet, Boston Symphony principal trumpet, Tom Rolfs does not care for his Bach trumpets having the standard 1/8” (.125”) gap. Rather, he prefers a gap in the range of .090” to .100”. This allows him greater pitch flexibility without loosing too much pitch center. Tom described the feeling of getting further into the note. Coincidentally, the Yamaha Artist trumpet he now plays comes standard with .100” gap. So you see, flexibility of pitch can be achieved without sacrificing efficiency.

My two cents.

And another thing many of you may or may not be aware. Subtle changes in water key pad material and screw tension can providing lesser or greater pitch center and firmness of articulations. Some additional food for thought. Discuss....
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JHirakawa
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2023 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hopefully you can at least get the valves out or at lease one of them. If one valve looks good, there's a fair chance the others will be in similar condition. If even one valve looks like crap, that's a real bad sign. The horn has to be really special to take a chance. Can you get any of the slides out? If you can get the 1st valve slide out, block the valve tube on the upstream side with your thumb, depress the valve, and blow hard into the mouthpiece or receiver. That will give you a indication there is leakage. If you can only get the 2nd valve slide out you would be only be testing the 2nd and 3rd valves. If you can only get the 3rd valve slide out, you would only be testing the 3rd valve. Slides can be stuck for a lot of reasons. The easiest to DYI fix are ones that are stuck because of hardened grease or gunk. Nut-buster penetrating oil, a little heat from a hair blower, and a lot of patience should solve that. Be real patient. Spray, wait, heat. Repeat for as long as necessary. WD-40 doesn't work as good as Nut buster. It's not a penetrating oil. If slides are stuck because of a dent or tubes that are out of parallel, it could get expensive to fix. A gunked up horn with stuck valves or stuck slides is actually a safer bet than a clean horn with a stuck valves or stuck slide. The above tests can only give you an indication of conditions. You can't get a true test of compression until the valves and slides are free, clean, oiled and greased. Gunk will hide leaky valves and slides.

Here are a couple of vintage trumpets that I picked up last year. I didn't have do much to either trumpet to get them looing like that. I did nothing to the valves or valve slides other than clean them. Not bad looking for 1947 and 1948 vintage horns. The bottom horn was a no-brainer. I grabbed it the moment I saw it at a local estate sales. I got the top horn, a 1947 Holton 48, from a Goodwill auction. I usually avoid bidding on that site. It's a crap shoot. Can't pre-inspect, bad descriptions, sold as-is, usually junk, too often overbid. Then I noticed the 3rd valve slide stop. It looked like it had all the original parts! That is very unusual for a horn that old. It told me the previous owner cared, so I put in a modest bid. I was right. Bad looking lacquer can be a good thing. It can scare away some of the bidders. ("Music is for the ears, not the eyes" Adele). Good luck.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8d/Benge_%26_Holton_Trumpets.jpg

(I always go to estate sales with valve oil, a flashlight and a trumpet and cornet mouthpiece.)
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JHirakawa
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2023 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4a/4_Vintage_Trumpets.jpg

Here are the 4 vintage trumpets that I own. All are in great shape, nice valves, good compression, straight, no dents. (The photo is distorted). I already told you about the Benge and Holton. The other two are a 1947 Conn 22b that I got off of Ebay for $100 and a 1969 Olds Custom Crafted that I got for $125 from Craigs List.

The Conn was described as being in good condition, but the lacquer looked like crap. It was really bad. That may have been why I got it so cheap. Old lacquer can be easy to remove in some cases. It came off the Conn with just hot water and elbow grease. New lacquer is really hard to remove. Don't even try. Conns' Crysteel valves are really durable. An ugly finish can save you money, (but the valves have to be good).

I don't think the lady that sold me the Olds knew much about her horn even though she was the original owner. She posted it as an unmarked Olds trumpet, with no pictures, for $125 OBO. At first, I though it was one of the student horns that Olds sole right before they folded. I asked her to tell me what exactly was stamped on the bell. She said "Serial number 37117 Custom Crafted by F.E. Olds". The 37117 is designed to be a lightweight Mendez, (which means it's a French Besson/Benge clone). She needed a horn that blended better with her church band. The others were playing Bachs. Her valves were way out of alignment, in the up and down positions. She had really thick pads on it. Lesson learned, bad alignment and sellers' ignorance can save you money.

My first ever Ebay purchase was for a Kanstul French Besson Classic b-flat trumpet (not in the photo). It was listed with minimal description: Besson Trumpet, excellent condition, extra set of valve caps, minimum bid $499. Photos of the bell and receiver showed me exactly what it was. I was the only bidder and ended up with Kanstuls' French Besson version of a Bach Strad 37 with a Najoom pipe, like new condition, and a double horn case. Plus, I knew that horn originally was sold with an extra set of heavy bottom valve caps. Bad descriptions can save you money.

I have had busts too, but I managed to flip them, usually for a modest profit. I haven't taken a loss yet (knock on wood).

Good hunting.
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'62 Olds Spl Cornet
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'54 Conn 34a
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