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Some questions about soundproofing


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deleted_user_687c31b
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 11:54 pm    Post subject: Some questions about soundproofing Reply with quote

My neighbours have been complaining about the loudness of my trumpet practice and I’ve been doing some google research about soundproofing. The basics are pretty clear (add mass, room-in-room concept, isolation vs. absorption, etc.) but I have some specific questions I couldn’t find an answer to so I figured I’d ask then here.

I currently play in a room on the to floor of my house that doesn’t share a wall with my neighbours, but the inside walls and doors are pretty thin so a lot of sound still gets through. Sound proofing those walls would add a lot of weight (which I’m unsure the foundation would support) so I’m looking for alternatives. Since the sound has to travel through other rooms before it reaches the shared wall, I was wondering if I could change something in those rooms to dampen the sound. To use the bookcase example, if I were to add a bookcase to the outside wall of my practice room, would that dampen the sound as well? And what about putting canvas paintings (the noise absorption ones) on the outside wall?

Also, I know sound absorption materials won’t reduce the noise but what if they were put on the walls opposite to the one you’re trying to soundproof? Would that reduce the reflection towards that wall and thus the noise? And how about putting it on the reflective surfaces of the adjacent rooms?

Finally, I read an article by a trombone player that made a tent inside his house using sound dampening curtains similar to a room-in-room only less heavy. Is that something that you’d think would work? (I’ve read some curtains that claim to achieve 12dB reduction, if they’d achieve half that it would be quite significant already)

Mind you, I’m not looking to totally soundproof my practice room (yet). For now, significant noise reduction would suffice.
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Joel Payne
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Take a look at this site:

https://www.mute-tube.com/de/mute-tube-shop/mute_tube_professional_komplett-set

Pricey for what it is, so I jerry-rigged something based on it's concept using a large carboard box lined with acoustic 'eggcrate' foam tiles. Works surprisingly well -cuts volume by 50-70%, dependent on how far into the container I place the bell while playing.
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deleted_user_687c31b
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joel Payne wrote:
Take a look at this site:

https://www.mute-tube.com/de/mute-tube-shop/mute_tube_professional_komplett-set

Pricey for what it is, so I jerry-rigged something based on it's concept using a large carboard box lined with acoustic 'eggcrate' foam tiles. Works surprisingly well -cuts volume by 50-70%, dependent on how far into the container I place the bell while playing.


That’s certainly a potential solution but (and I should’ve mentioned this in my original post) we also have a tenor sax player in our house and I don’t think they’d appreciate it if I were to straighten their instrument just so it would fit in that box. I do appreciate the suggestion though and I’ll certainly consider it.
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etc-etc
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Something along these lines (PetSmart etc), add your own soundproofing:
Small Pet Carrier Bag
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Didymus
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 3:10 pm    Post subject: Tenor Sax Mute Reply with quote

hibidogrulez wrote:
Joel Payne wrote:
Take a look at this site:

https://www.mute-tube.com/de/mute-tube-shop/mute_tube_professional_komplett-set

Pricey for what it is, so I jerry-rigged something based on it's concept using a large carboard box lined with acoustic 'eggcrate' foam tiles. Works surprisingly well -cuts volume by 50-70%, dependent on how far into the container I place the bell while playing.


That’s certainly a potential solution but (and I should’ve mentioned this in my original post) we also have a tenor sax player in our house and I don’t think they’d appreciate it if I were to straighten their instrument just so it would fit in that box. I do appreciate the suggestion though and I’ll certainly consider it.


I know this is slightly tangential to the discussion, but there are tenor sax practice mutes:



An effective sax mute for practice would have to be made in this manner because the bell of a sax becomes the primary sound "diffuser" (sorry for my imprecise terminology) only when all the keys of a saxophone are pressed down.

Another way to put it is, the bell in that scenario becomes the bottom-most hole in the tube within which the air column vibrates.

I know that's not exactly true, due to phenomena like harmonics and whatnot, but that's how woodwinds basically work. The bottom-most uncovered hole is the main "bell" of the instrument until all the holes are covered, then the bell at the end of the instrument really becomes the main bell of the instrument.

So, and with no intention to seem like a complete wise-ass, straightening out your housemate's saxophone so that they could blow straight into a mute-tube also wouldn't be an effective solution.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 3:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Some questions about soundproofing Reply with quote

hibidogrulez wrote:
...
Mind you, I’m not looking to totally soundproof my practice room (yet). For now, significant noise reduction would suffice.

---------------------------
From your description, the walls (including ceiling and floors) of your rooms are in direct contact with those of your neighbor. There might be a lot of sound being transmitted by vibrations of more than just the wall itself.
A carpet or rug on the floor would help - if not already present. Some sort of fabric wall hangings would also help. The ceiling might be addressed with thin sheets of foam insulation board. If light weight material is used, it might be able to suspend it with a 'web' of thin wire or fishing line attached around the perimeter of the ceiling - to avoid permanent changes to the ceiling itself.
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
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deleted_user_687c31b
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 11:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Some questions about soundproofing Reply with quote

Didymus wrote:
I know this is slightly tangential to the discussion, but there are tenor sax practice mutes:

No, that's actually quite helpful. I'm currently researching options and being able to mute all instruments (not just the trumpet) would certainly be a solution. Good to know these exist, thank you.

JayKosta wrote:
From your description, the walls (including ceiling and floors) of your rooms are in direct contact with those of your neighbor.

Our house is one in a row of houses yes, but the room itself isn't directly in contact with the neighbours' walls. It's a dormer on the top floor (so the ceiling isn't a problem fortunately).

JayKosta wrote:
There might be a lot of sound being transmitted by vibrations of more than just the wall itself.
A carpet or rug on the floor would help - if not already present.

Hadn't thought about that yet. The floor is laminated wood on concrete...not ideal. A rug might be beneficial. Do you have a recommendation about what kind of rug would work best? Should I opt for covering the entire floor?

Also, I did notice there are some major gaps under the inner doors which allow for ventilation (but unfortunately, sound as well). I'm gonna see about sealing them to see if that helps (the doors are usually open anyway so ventilation won't be a problem).

Thanks for the advice so far guys, I really appreciate it.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2020 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most interior doors are what are called “hollow core doors”. These do a very poor job of blocking sound as the are basically two sounds transferring surfaces separated by a small air gap. So, while sealing the gaps under the doors (and adding weather stripping around the top and sides) will help, it really won’t help that much.

You might find creating a room inside the room using heavy curtains or mover’s blankets to be a better option. You will need to block ceiling and floor too, not just the sides.
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2020 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I've written to some of the other posts on this. I also live in an apartment and sound is an issue.

I often play into my bookcases or closet. In my apartment windows are also single pain, so it is actually easier to hear me from the street than from the adjoining apartments.

You can also try making interventions and having someone measure decibels. It may be that one room is quieter than another or that small interventions help. With my one room I play into an open double case and that reduces the sound some.

As others have said it can be hard to know how sound is distributed. The only time neighbors have complained was when my kids were rolling marbles once (for us it was almost no sound but very loud for the neighbors below) and another time when our fan disturbed neighbors in an adjoining apartment.

If you're serious enough about it you might also want to talk to somebody who does acoustics. It may be for a couple of hundred dollars they could give you excellent advice. Good luck! Let us know how it works out!
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deleted_user_687c31b
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2020 6:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I kinda knew what I was getting into, as many of the online guides contain similar warnings: soundproofing is complex, requires specific expertise and there's no such thing as cheap and easy solutions.

The main problem is that the noise complaints are coming from the neighbours...like HaveTrumpetWillTravel's marble example, the sound is barely audible in the living room. That makes it hard to estimate how big the problem actually is, and while I could go there with a decibel meter, I'd prefer to be a good neighbour and see if I can minimize the problem first, and then ask if I can measure the sound to help fix the problems if those fixes are ineffective.

The tips in this thread are certainly helpful. I'm trying to be economical about it (the doorstops for example, can be reapplied to heavier doors later) by trying things one at a time. The staircases were padded with carpet steps (something that was on the todo-list already for asthetic purposes) to help reduce the echo. Getting noise dampening curtains (for the tent-in-room) for a good price was tricky but I managed to find some that were cheap and, if they don't work, can be used for other purposes. If that doesn't suffice, I'll see about replacing a door or two with a solid one (they're due to be replaced anyway). After that I'll get back to you guys for more ideas...or just maybe consult that specialist after all
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2020 7:11 am    Post subject: Re: Some questions about soundproofing Reply with quote

hibidogrulez wrote:
... A rug might be beneficial. Do you have a recommendation about what kind of rug would work best? Should I opt for covering the entire floor? ...

-----------------------------
Covering the entire floor with a thick rug would be best. If you do-it-yourself, just make sure the rug is not too heavy to carry, and is not too big to transport.
Most new rugs do have a strong smell that takes a while to 'air out'. In winter with windows closed, that might be a concern.
A big concern with sound proofing is to reduce the 'hard contact' (wood, metal, concrete, etc.) between rooms. It is the vibrating surfaces that need most attention - not the 'open air sound pathways'.

If your neighbors are willing, perhaps you can talk with them about the details of how your playing affects them. Some people are very sensitive to sounds and prefer absolute quiet ... perhaps you could offer to buy them a small fan to run in their house to produce a low volume 'white noise' that would help.
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
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deleted_user_48e5f31
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2020 7:54 am    Post subject: Something like this Reply with quote

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Last edited by deleted_user_48e5f31 on Tue Jan 05, 2021 6:13 am; edited 1 time in total
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arthurtwoshedsjackson
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2020 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use strategically placed sound absorption blankets sold by:

https://www.vocalboothtogo.com/

to reduce reverberation and overall volume within my practice room and inside the room itself, it’s noticeably quieter. That said, my spouse says there is no difference in what she can hear downstairs. None. She doesn’t care and we live in a stand alone house, so the blankets have done the job I needed.

My research indicates that rooms can be designed and built to be ‘soundproof’ using a variety of materials, but an existing room cannot really be retrofitted as such by applying foam, blankets and other materials. As room can certainly be tuned and quieted to some degree, but not ‘proofed.’

Speaking to the neighbors is an excellent suggestion. Perhaps you can agree on a practice time if you are only able to practice at home. I know that we’re all mostly stuck at home... Hopefully they are understanding and can find a time to accommodate you.

A review of the Mute Tube was also posted on TH recently. It’s not cheap, but sound attenuation appears to be comparable to a practice mute.


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deleted_user_48e5f31
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2020 9:43 am    Post subject: Worth considering Reply with quote

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Speed
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joel Payne wrote:
Take a look at this site:

https://www.mute-tube.com/de/mute-tube-shop/mute_tube_professional_komplett-set

Pricey for what it is, so I jerry-rigged something based on it's concept using a large carboard box lined with acoustic 'eggcrate' foam tiles. Works surprisingly well -cuts volume by 50-70%, dependent on how far into the container I place the bell while playing.


This is the concept behind the Marcus Bonna GS Studio case, which costs a few hundred dollars. I travel with one. I've set it up in a hotel room and played into it. A relative in the adjoining room could not hear my playing.

It sounds like you've found a good solution without spending a lot of money. Well done!
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deleted_user_687c31b
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A small update: yesterday I received the parts I needed to seal the gaps around the inner doors of the house (some of them had a 3cm gap at the bottom). It was an easy enough job and the parts were pretty inexpensive, but the neighbours already noticed an improvement. While the practice room is still far from soundproof (perfectly soundproof isn't the ultimate goal anyway), it's certainly a good step in the right direction. I'm considering replacing the door of the room with a solid core one so I've made sure the seals are transferable, but overall it's funny how such small changes can make a noticable difference.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the door, get flat hooks that fit over the top edge of the door and use a door-width section of rod to hang a blanket or cloth to cover the door down to the floor.
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
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etc-etc
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Be careful with too perfect soundproofing - it also cuts down the natural ventilation. Acoustic foam can off-gas making the air not healthy.
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deleted_user_687c31b
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

etc-etc wrote:
Be careful with too perfect soundproofing - it also cuts down the natural ventilation. Acoustic foam can off-gas making the air not healthy.

Good point. The doors in the house are usually open though, so ventilation's not much of a problem. They're only closed when I practice.
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deleted_user_687c31b
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Upgraded the door of my practice room last week. Getting a solid core door proved more troublesome (and expensive) than I thought, so I went and got some Isomat (basically mass loaded vinyl) and glued it to the door of my practice room. It was the weakest link in the whole setup so far and again, the difference between the isolated door and a hollow core door (both with gap seals) is significant. Regular and soft playing can no longer be heard downstairs, and loud playing can be drowned out by conversation or turning on the radio.

For those of you who are looking to DIY this, note that although adding isolation to a door is both doable and cheaper than getting a solid core door, it's quite a hassle to get it right. Cutting the isomat into shape must be very precise to avoid introducing sound leaks, and glueing it to the door must be done right the first time (I ended up having to use more screws). Also, the door will be thicker and heavier, so the hinges must be adjusted accordingly. Simply replacing the door with a solid core one is much, much easier and saves you a few hours of work and a few days of glue/paint smell in the house (and is only about $50 more expensive).

Only got a few more things on my list, which I'm not expecting to make a huge difference. One of them is adding a bunch of (insulated) canvas paintings (which will probably do more for the looks than actual dampening) and adding sound absorption panels to the stairwell to reduce the echo (that might actually work, but is also more for aesthetics than major sound reduction).
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