What's with the D above high C?

[soulfire]

I've been watching/reading quite a bit about range recently and it seems to me that most people (or at least a large percentage) top off at D above high C. This is the limit of their "natural range", after which they need to consciously work to increase it.

I'm curious what the technical/scientific folks out there think about this. Why is it that note specifically?
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Chris

[Goby]

Without any hard data, I would guess that around D or Eb above High C is the natural limit for how fast you can push air out of your lungs without any added compression by the tongue or a trained embouchure. I would also guess that excessive pressure on the chops cuts off high-frequency vibrations, making a ceiling around D or Eb where no higher note will come out. Speaking from personal experience, I used to be stuck at Eb, and my range didn't improve until I made it my goal to play more efficiently and with less mouthpiece pressure.

[kalijah]

[JayKosta]

First off, I think that many people find that their 'natural range' tops out at the G or A above the staff. For those people, notes higher can sometimes be 'squeaked out' but are not 'performance playable'.

I have a belief (thru my personal experience) that many people are able to reach the G/A level by using high mouthpiece pressure and a not-so-good-embouchure-technique. Trying to play higher than the A exposes the limitations of mpc pressure and poor technique.

There might also be a psychological limit of HI C since it is often the highest note used in many method books.

Another factor is that the harmonic intervals get real close together beginning with the Bb below Hi C, and higher - that makes adjusting the embouchure to produce the desired pitch more difficult and more important.
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.

[Crazy Finn]

[kalijah]

[deleted_user_48e5f31]

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[gwood66]

I'll take a SWAG. I think what it means is that the notes do not slot as easily as we ascend above the high C range and based on my (limited) research stop slotting around G above high C. Most of us average Joe's fight the acoustics of the horn with our inefficient playing set up's which is why a lot of people struggle to play above the staff and top out in the C/D area.
_________________
Gary Wood (comeback player with no street cred)

GR 66M/66MS/66**
Bach Strad 37
Getzen 3052
Yamaha 6345

[dstpt]

[kalijah]

The chart is accurate in general but the impedance curve can of course vary with instrument design.

It's interesting that one can create this curve if you have access to a frequency response spectrum display. Some audio recording software can produce that with the equalizer curve display for an audio track.

What you do is "pop" the mouthpiece with the palm of your hand and record the output with a microphone.

This inputs a reasonably good impulse into the instrument, technically known as the dirac delta functuon. That is, a pressure pulse of significant energy but very short duration. (Theoretically zero duration)

Input of an impulse into a system will produce an output that shows the frequency response of the system. I have had experience in practice testing electrical and acoustic systems with this method. It works regardless of physical system type. This is a concept that is well know in communication and acoustics theory and practice.

So a pop of the mouthpiece will reveal a frequency graph of the output which shows the resonant frequencies. It appears much like the typical graph shown above. You can also see where the pedal resonance peak is for that instrument.

Unfortunately the resonances decay rapidly but with a "waterfall" style graphic data one can observe how the standing waves decay with time. Or repeated replays make it easier to see.

The graph I posted is from Ga State physics department and includes source information.

[deleted_user_48e5f31]

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[kalijah]

The cited source of the graph is:

Backus, John, The Acoustical Foundations of Music, 2nd Ed, W W Norton, New York, 1977

Backus was well respected and credentialed. I'm not sure if he played double Cs on trumpet though, so....

[deleted_user_48e5f31]

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[deleted_user_48e5f31]

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[kalijah]

The acoustical frequency response of the modern trumpet has not changed in 43 years. Neither have the basic acoustic principles. Modern measurement methods would reveal the same curve.

Including even a crude impulse/response experiment as I described above, which will reveal the response curve with a modest degree of accuracy.

[Goby]

Thanks for posting that graph. Very cool to see quantitative analysis of the things we all think we "feel".

As far as concern over university ranking.... I'm gonna trust the physics PhD over a random TH poster any day of the week.

[Croquethed]

Those guys at US News couldn't play Hot Cross Buns on a bet.

[deleted_user_48e5f31]

Deleted by dfcoleman

[Richard III]

[etc-etc]

Darryl,

Thank you for posting the graph by John Backus.

The value of the peak impedance at high D, while smaller than at high C, is still higher than peak impedance at either of C and G in staff - both of which are vastly easier to play than a high D.

Do you think that for notes above High C, one plays notes via forced oscillations (aka buzzing)?