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Embouchure Functioning


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FRANCIS MAZIERS
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 10:04 am    Post subject: Embouchure Functioning Reply with quote

After setting an embouchure between a "m" and "p", how is the best way to tighten, change stiffness, change the amount of flesh... in short, changing the physical characteristics of the lips in order to change pitch optimally?
Francis.
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Noodly
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been reading a lot about this. Some say, do not stretch the lips wider, but squeeze them together. This goes with the idea of "don't smile". But a different viewpoint is that pitch is controlled more by the speed of the air rather than muscle tightness. I tried this just with lip buzzing and was surprised that I could get a one octave slur just by pushing the air faster.
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abontrumpet
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

After you make a sound, forget about the lips. Give it a couple years before you thing about them again or get a teacher.
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Noodly wrote:
I have been reading a lot about this. Some say, do not stretch the lips wider, but squeeze them together. This goes with the idea of "don't smile". But a different viewpoint is that pitch is controlled more by the speed of the air rather than muscle tightness. I tried this just with lip buzzing and was surprised that I could get a one octave slur just by pushing the air faster.


Pitch is not controlled by air speed. Pitch is controlled by varying resistance to the air stream. If you didn't increase resistance when you pushed the air faster the pitch would have remained the same only louder. You can play all pitches with a constant air speed by varying the resistance.
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are 3 primary actions.

1. Roll-in

2. Roll -out

3. Press-together

My approach is to do as little as possible of all 3 as I ascend. AND to also BALANCE the 3 actions in a way that works best. My ideal balance is less of #3 and slighrly more of #1.

Those who are dominantly #2 in action tend to have more tongue movement as they ascend.
I used to play that way but had limited range and endurance until I played in a more balanced effort.

But you must practice such that it feels natural and not conscious.
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deleted_user_48e5f31
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 3:37 pm    Post subject: Get a teacher Reply with quote

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kalijah
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dfcoleman wrote:
Quote:
Connecting with one of your top-flight teachers makes a lot of sense. Skype or some other video platform is better than nothing, and right now it’s the only really safe option, but face to face is the best when that becomes available again.


This is good advice and I don't think anyone offering their opinion here would discourage that.

Besides, you speak French but very little English. I speak English but very little English.
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FRANCIS MAZIERS
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First of all thanks for all the people in this forum to share tips and point of view here. I think that everyone has to gain by sharing experiences and advices and by reflecting on certain dogmas repeated for decades!
I don’t think that French players are better than others. The majority of teachers are saying unfortunately the same things for decades: the air, the speed of the air is the key! Sing in your trumpet or you just have to think of the sound in your head, just blow etc...
For me these tips are too vague and seems to me like beliefs, magic’s, metaphysics!
But with these types of advices, many people fail to play the trumpet efficiently, like me for several years. I can see all around me people that have no range, endurance and good sound even with teacher’s advices for many years. They finally stopped, for many, the trumpet because it seems to be reserved for the most gifted!
I don't believe in magic, in the supernatural even if some people are more talented than others. On the other hand, I believe in working efficiently with practical instructions.
So I must thank Alabama for its advices which seems to me, in my eyes anyway, the most astute I have ever read!
Francis.
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Skanker
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Francis
From my very limited knowledge and experience, it sounds to me like you might be interested in Jeff Smiley's Balanced Embouchure. There's a forum here on TH
Andy
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You don't need to manipulate your lips while playing anymore than you need to manipulate your vocal cords when singing.
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Billy B wrote:
You don't need to manipulate your lips while playing anymore than you need to manipulate your vocal cords when singing.


This is confusing to me. I'm not certain what the point is that you're trying to make.

You have to manipulate your lips by moving/changing their relative position in order to change pitch. These movements are slight but they are movements nonetheless.

Similarly, changing pitch when singing involves movement/change in the vocal chords. Again, these movements are slight but they are movements nonetheless.

So, is your point that the necessary manipulation of the lips is as slight as the manipulation of the vocal chords or is your point that there is no manipulation at all?

If it is the latter it would be the same thing James Morrison is saying, that is, that pitch is determined by air speed and so to play higher you keep the lips the same and just increase the speed of the air. That simply is not the way it works.

In order to change pitch you have to change the resistance your lips place on the air stream. In order to do that you have to change something about the positioning of the lips by manipulating the lips correctly to produce that result.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FRANCIS MAZIERS wrote:
...
For me these tips are too vague and seems to me like beliefs, magic’s, metaphysics!
... On the other hand, I believe in working efficiently with practical instructions. ...

----------------------------------
You might get some useful information from my webpage about Embouchure -
http://users.hancock.net/jkosta/Embouchure_Basic_Concepts.htm

I have recently updated it with additional information related to the 'resistance' that HERMOKIWI mentioned.
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gtromble
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 12:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Embouchure Functioning Reply with quote

FRANCIS MAZIERS wrote:
After setting an embouchure between a "m" and "p", how is the best way to tighten, change stiffness, change the amount of flesh... in short, changing the physical characteristics of the lips in order to change pitch optimally?
Francis.


The best way is not to manipulate the embouchure that way. Focus on the sound and air and let the embouchure respond to the air.
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HERMOKIWI wrote:
Billy B wrote:
You don't need to manipulate your lips while playing anymore than you need to manipulate your vocal cords when singing.


This is confusing to me. I'm not certain what the point is that you're trying to make.

You have to manipulate your lips by moving/changing their relative position in order to change pitch. These movements are slight but they are movements nonetheless.

Similarly, changing pitch when singing involves movement/change in the vocal chords. Again, these movements are slight but they are movements nonetheless.

So, is your point that the necessary manipulation of the lips is as slight as the manipulation of the vocal chords or is your point that there is no manipulation at all?

If it is the latter it would be the same thing James Morrison is saying, that is, that pitch is determined by air speed and so to play higher you keep the lips the same and just increase the speed of the air. That simply is not the way it works.

In order to change pitch you have to change the resistance your lips place on the air stream. In order to do that you have to change something about the positioning of the lips by manipulating the lips correctly to produce that result.


Not consciously

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Billy B
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Embouchure Functioning Reply with quote

gtromble wrote:
FRANCIS MAZIERS wrote:
After setting an embouchure between a "m" and "p", how is the best way to tighten, change stiffness, change the amount of flesh... in short, changing the physical characteristics of the lips in order to change pitch optimally?
Francis.


The best way is not to manipulate the embouchure that way. Focus on the sound and air and let the embouchure respond to the air.

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Wilktone
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When you're performing or rehearsing with others you shouldn't worry about your embouchure but just concentrate on sounding good. When you're practicing I feel it's best to understand how you're playing and whether or not it's correct.

When you teach I feel it's necessary to understand what's going on. I find that ignoring embouchure form and function misses an important piece of the bigger picture.

The correct way to play is different for different players. Everyone has a unique anatomy, everyone has a unique embouchure. That said, there are common patterns that can be described and when you understand which one you best fit into it will provide a road map of the physical mechanics you need in order to play at your best.

The following resource is not really designed for students, but for teachers. Still, you might find it interesting and it goes into more detail on what I wrote above.

https://wilktone.com/?page_id=5619

Dave
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm in agreement that the embouchure setting should be automatic, that you shouldn't have to think about it. However, what should be and what actually is can be two different things.

If results are not satisfactory you need to be thinking about what is responsible as it's happening and adjust accordingly. Having a good understanding of exactly what works for you and what is happening when things aren't working is the key component to making adjustments in real time.

It can take a lot of time and a lot of repetition before things are automatic. Not thinking about your embouchure is a good way to ignore things you need to do to produce good results.

When things are not happening the way you want things to happen you may go through a period in which you have to force yourself to do the things you need to do to get good results. That's part of the process of building muscle memory. It isn't automatic until it's automatic.
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HERMOKIWI wrote:
I'm in agreement that the embouchure setting should be automatic, that you shouldn't have to think about it. However, what should be and what actually is can be two different things.

If results are not satisfactory you need to be thinking about what is responsible as it's happening and adjust accordingly. Having a good understanding of exactly what works for you and what is happening when things aren't working is the key component to making adjustments in real time.

It can take a lot of time and a lot of repetition before things are automatic. Not thinking about your embouchure is a good way to ignore things you need to do to produce good results.

When things are not happening the way you want things to happen you may go through a period in which you have to force yourself to do the things you need to do to get good results. That's part of the process of building muscle memory. It isn't automatic until it's automatic.


If that works for you, fine. But I certainly wouldn't advise it.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:44 am    Post subject: Re: Embouchure Functioning Reply with quote

gtromble wrote:
... Focus on the sound and air and let the embouchure respond to the air.

------------------------------------
My understanding of that is -
'focus on the DESIRED RESULT (pitch, volume, tone, etc.) and use the embouchure and air to work together in production of the sound'.
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King Super 20 (S2 1048, HN White)
Bach 7
The 'next note' is the most important one.
Don't take a '20 minute mouthpiece' to a 1 hour session.
http://users.hancock.net/jkosta/2020_Dec_17_Snow_2_small.jpg
Big Snow 1 week before Christmas
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wilktone wrote:
When you're performing or rehearsing with others you shouldn't worry about your embouchure but just concentrate on sounding good. When you're practicing I feel it's best to understand how you're playing and whether or not it's correct.

When you teach I feel it's necessary to understand what's going on. I find that ignoring embouchure form and function misses an important piece of the bigger picture.

The correct way to play is different for different players. Everyone has a unique anatomy, everyone has a unique embouchure. That said, there are common patterns that can be described and when you understand which one you best fit into it will provide a road map of the physical mechanics you need in order to play at your best.

The following resource is not really designed for students, but for teachers. Still, you might find it interesting and it goes into more detail on what I wrote above.

https://wilktone.com/?page_id=5619

Dave


Your article is excellent and thorough.
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