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Embouchure Functioning


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Billy B
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:03 am    Post subject: Re: Embouchure Functioning Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
gtromble wrote:
... Focus on the sound and air and let the embouchure respond to the air.

------------------------------------
My understanding of that is -
'focus on the DESIRED RESULT (pitch, volume, tone, etc.) and use the embouchure and air to work together in production of the sound'.

NO
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Billy B wrote:
If that works for you, fine. But I certainly wouldn't advise it.


Those who play mindlessly without awareness of their mistakes are destined to repeat those mistakes. One of the most common problems trumpeters experience is practicing the wrong things not understanding that they are wrong or even thinking in those terms and, through that process, becoming very skilled at doing the wrong things that seriously compromise their results.

The process of learning a correct embouchure involves thinking about it and doing things deliberately. Not thinking about your embouchure and not making adjustments to correct deficiencies is an invitation to perpetual problems.
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HERMOKIWI wrote:
Billy B wrote:
If that works for you, fine. But I certainly wouldn't advise it.


Those who play mindlessly without awareness of their mistakes are destined to repeat those mistakes. One of the most common problems trumpeters experience is practicing the wrong things not understanding that they are wrong or even thinking in those terms and, through that process, becoming very skilled at doing the wrong things that seriously compromise their results.

The process of learning a correct embouchure involves thinking about it and doing things deliberately. Not thinking about your embouchure and not making adjustments to correct deficiencies is an invitation to perpetual problems.


Do you actually have any qualifications? Who have you studied with?
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Billy B wrote:

Not consciously
...

----------------------
A thread from just over a year ago that is somewhat related -
https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1586622#1586622
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
Billy B wrote:

Not consciously
...

----------------------
A thread from just over a year ago that is somewhat related -
https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1586622#1586622


But did you follow through with the suggestions made by Pat Harbison and I?
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Billy B wrote:
HERMOKIWI wrote:
Billy B wrote:
If that works for you, fine. But I certainly wouldn't advise it.


Those who play mindlessly without awareness of their mistakes are destined to repeat those mistakes. One of the most common problems trumpeters experience is practicing the wrong things not understanding that they are wrong or even thinking in those terms and, through that process, becoming very skilled at doing the wrong things that seriously compromise their results.

The process of learning a correct embouchure involves thinking about it and doing things deliberately. Not thinking about your embouchure and not making adjustments to correct deficiencies is an invitation to perpetual problems.


Do you actually have any qualifications? Who have you studied with?


Nice try Billy.
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HERMOKIWI wrote:
Billy B wrote:
HERMOKIWI wrote:
Billy B wrote:
If that works for you, fine. But I certainly wouldn't advise it.


Those who play mindlessly without awareness of their mistakes are destined to repeat those mistakes. One of the most common problems trumpeters experience is practicing the wrong things not understanding that they are wrong or even thinking in those terms and, through that process, becoming very skilled at doing the wrong things that seriously compromise their results.

The process of learning a correct embouchure involves thinking about it and doing things deliberately. Not thinking about your embouchure and not making adjustments to correct deficiencies is an invitation to perpetual problems.



Nice try Billy.


Seriously. Are these your observations or something you have been taught
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Billy B wrote:


But did you follow through with the suggestions made by Pat Harbison and I?

---------------------------
Why is that relevant to the discussion about HOW a player learns to produce and control their sound? Learning typically means acquiring new information, and 'produce and control' involves physical activity & changes.

I would like to keep this thread about 'Embouchure Functioning' - not the specific methods of a particular teacher. The thread in the 'Bill Adam' section was meant to show how a 'teaching method' could be adapted to meet the situation where learning (or change) of embouchure function was needed.
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
Billy B wrote:


But did you follow through with the suggestions made by Pat Harbison and I?

---------------------------
Why is that relevant to the discussion about HOW a player learns to produce and control their sound? Learning typically means acquiring new information, and 'produce and control' involves physical activity & changes.

I would like to keep this thread about 'Embouchure Functioning' - not the specific methods of a particular teacher. The thread in the 'Bill Adam' section was meant to show how a 'teaching method' could be adapted to meet the situation where learning (or change) of embouchure function was needed.


You reposted the thread. I assumed you wanted clarification.

And this is extremely relevant.
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxTb2gEaTU4
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Wilktone
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ideas should stand on their own merit, regardless of who said it or who that player studied with. Even the smartest people are wrong once in a while and even a broken clock is right twice a day.

There are ways to look at embouchure technique empirically. Personally, I think it's the teacher's responsibility to do that and give the student enough information to not overload the student, which I think is what Billy is advocating. However, the way it's being framed is coming across as all or nothing. There is value to both conscious analysis and focus on the sound and music.
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hibidogrulez
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From my personal experience I've learned that 'analysis paralysis' is a very real thing. In my case, I've been told to 'breathe with my stomach' for most of my trumpet life, yet I couldn't do it no matter how hard I tried. When I finally stopped trying and just focused on making a well sounding tone, the breathing followed. In hindsight it was the same as learning what to do, except instead of focusing on specific muscles, it was more of finding out which combination produced the best result, and then train on that as much as possible.

Focusing primarily on the sound isn't that ludicrous...it's part of finding out which combination of effort produces the best result for the player. That probably doesn't work for everyone though, hence the different approaches and methods.
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Wilktone
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hibidogrulez wrote:
From my personal experience I've learned that 'analysis paralysis' is a very real thing.


It sure is, but I find that the paralysis is usually caused either by analyzing something incorrectly in the first place or trying to do the analysis when your attention should be somewhere else.

"Analysis through multitasking when your attention should be on one thing at a time" doesn't have the same ring to it, though.

When it comes to embouchure analysis it gets a little tricky. Many great players and teachers intentionally dismiss analyzing the embouchure ever. If you don't understand what you're trying to work out, then there is a very good chance that any analysis will lead to paralysis. I posted a link to a web resource I put together earlier in this thread if you would like to read a different take on embouchure mechanics and pedagogy.

Quote:
Focusing primarily on the sound isn't that ludicrous...it's part of finding out which combination of effort produces the best result for the player. That probably doesn't work for everyone though, hence the different approaches and methods.


I would argue that focusing primarily on sound is essential, but not always. I don't believe that most players or teachers approach things this way, but that's how they tend to get framed. A bit of both, in their proper time and context, works better than only one all the time.

Good stuff, hibidogrulez.

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hibidogrulez
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wilktone wrote:
When it comes to embouchure analysis it gets a little tricky. Many great players and teachers intentionally dismiss analyzing the embouchure ever. If you don't understand what you're trying to work out, then there is a very good chance that any analysis will lead to paralysis. I posted a link to a web resource I put together earlier in this thread if you would like to read a different take on embouchure mechanics and pedagogy.

It's certainly interesting and very thorough, but a little out of my league I'm afraid. But it's obvious you've put a lot of thought and research into it...that's very commendable. Nice job.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hibidogrulez wrote:
...
Focusing primarily on the sound isn't that ludicrous...it's part of finding out which combination of effort produces the best result for the player. That probably doesn't work for everyone though, hence the different approaches and methods.

-------------------------------
For some people, the term 'focus on' is understood as 'do not think about anything else', just concentrate on that single item as it is NOW.

'finding out which combination of effort produces the best result' demands that attention be shifted away from solely the current sound, and directed to the efforts that can produce change and improvement. You can 'think' and 'focus' on the sound all you want, but nothing changes without some physical action (effort).

Certainly, being aware of the sound is critical, but so is being aware of what efforts are contributing to its current quality. I believe that for embouchure, the list of major efforts is fairly short, and a student should have basic knowledge of them.
Not to the extent of consciously choosing response of specific muscles, but realizing when something is not functioning properly, by having a general understanding of what the 'proper function' should be.

?? Is part of the problem that beginning players are not capable (or interested) in having that 'basic knowledge'? Yes, they can learn to make acceptable sounds and have some basic playing ability, but in the process they can be developing poor habits that will inhibit future progress.
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jay,

Go teach a few thousand lessons, spend a few decades paying the bills with your trumpet, study for years with internationally recognized pedagogues, then come back and tell us how it is.
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Billy B wrote:
Jay,

Go teach a few thousand lessons, spend a few decades paying the bills with your trumpet, study for years with internationally recognized pedagogues, then come back and tell us how it is.


Disrespecting the opinions of others doesn't score you any favorable points. Believe it or not, no one knows everything.
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HERMOKIWI wrote:
Billy B wrote:
Jay,

Go teach a few thousand lessons, spend a few decades paying the bills with your trumpet, study for years with internationally recognized pedagogues, then come back and tell us how it is.


Disrespecting the opinions of others doesn't score you any favorable points. Believe it or not, no one knows everything.


Answer the question
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HERMOKIWI wrote:
Billy B wrote:
If that works for you, fine. But I certainly wouldn't advise it.


Those who play mindlessly without awareness of their mistakes are destined to repeat those mistakes. One of the most common problems trumpeters experience is practicing the wrong things not understanding that they are wrong or even thinking in those terms and, through that process, becoming very skilled at doing the wrong things that seriously compromise their results.

The process of learning a correct embouchure involves thinking about it and doing things deliberately. Not thinking about your embouchure and not making adjustments to correct deficiencies is an invitation to perpetual problems.


That’s not how skills are actually learned. When I first started shooting free throws as a kid I missed 90% of them. By missing 9 times as many as I made I SHOULD have gotten worse until I could never make a free throw again. However....

Focusing on the target and carefree and relentless repetition improves all skills. Focusing on what you are doing or avoiding distracts from”eye on the ball” and retards progress.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And wilktone nails it when he says the teacher needs to know how things should work and make the right prescription. The player needs to play.
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