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Rod Haney
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Joined: 22 Aug 2015
Posts: 793

PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 7:18 pm    Post subject: Recommendation Reply with quote

Just bought a Stomvi upsound. I find it a great help in using my air efficiently with really good feedback on progress. Softer you play with resonance better you will sound on horn with less work.
Rod[/u]
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hibidogrulez
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Joined: 25 Jun 2020
Posts: 630
Location: Europe

PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks interesting. There seems to be some thought behind it at least...what are the advantages of this compared to say, leadpipe buzzing?
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If it were the person playing rather than the gear they use, I would sound even worse.

Tpts: Olds Recording & Getzen 700 SP
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Mpcs: AR Resonance MC 40med, MSLead 40sm & MFlgl 42lg
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stumac
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Joined: 19 Nov 2008
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Location: Flinders, Australia

PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another device to relieve the gullible of $125, does nothing that cannot be better achieved on the horn.

Regards, Stuart.
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Rod Haney
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Joined: 22 Aug 2015
Posts: 793

PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As one of the gullible, I consider it to be money well spent. You may be able to try one ‘for free’ and I encourage you to give it a try. Not every new aid is market driven, some simply try to help us with issues, its my belief that this is Stomvis goal.

Is your observation based on experience? Mine is.

Rod
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stumac
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Joined: 19 Nov 2008
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Location: Flinders, Australia

PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rod,
I was being the Devil's advocate, if it has helped you that is good, I have not tried one, the chance of trying one here in Australia is extremely limited, I am not prepared to spend A$161,78 +postage to try.

After 40 years of of playing trumpet I have found that the minimum mouthpiece pressure and relaxed chops are the keys to success, let the horn resonate and do the work.

I have given away free and mouthpiece buzzing which I did al ot of as I felt they were detrimental to my progress. On the eve of my 79th birthday I played a wedding, French Horn in a brass quintet at the afternoon service, arrival and at the reception dinner music 6:00 pm to 8:00 pm then big band dance music 8:30 till midnight on trumpet, came away feeling could have played more.

Regards, Stuart.
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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 1525
Location: Endwell NY USA

PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The primary benefit of the device is the claim that it gives a similar 'feeling' when just using the mpc, to that of playing the trumpet.

That would be an advantage if doing actual playing couldn't be done.
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Bach 7
The 'next note' is the most important one.
Don't take a '20 minute mouthpiece' to a 1 hour session.
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Denny Schreffler
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Joined: 14 Apr 2005
Posts: 303
Location: Tucson

PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stumac wrote:
Another device [that] does nothing that cannot be better achieved on the horn.

Regards, Stuart.


Well, not really.

The tpt/mpc system, or, better yet, any particular tpt/mpc system encourages its own harmonics. We’re either cooperating with the acoustic impedance of the system or trying to fudge it – or we don’t have a clue and we still have the sound of a beginner.

The UpSound provides a realistic feeling of resistance without drawing the lip vibrations to/toward one of the trumpet’s natural pitches.

The kind of focused tone production (mpc playing) and constant air flow that is possible with an UpSound cannot be done on a mpc alone, on a leadpipe, or on a trumpet.

-Denny
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hibidogrulez
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Joined: 25 Jun 2020
Posts: 630
Location: Europe

PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Denny Schreffler wrote:
The kind of focused tone production (mpc playing) and constant air flow that is possible with an UpSound cannot be done on a mpc alone, on a leadpipe, or on a trumpet.

Doesn't that also mean that it has little application to actual trumpet playing though? Also, in what way do you think does this contribute specifically to high range development?
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If it were the person playing rather than the gear they use, I would sound even worse.

Tpts: Olds Recording & Getzen 700 SP
Cornet: Olds Super
Mpcs: AR Resonance MC 40med, MSLead 40sm & MFlgl 42lg
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Denny Schreffler
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Joined: 14 Apr 2005
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Location: Tucson

PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hibidogrulez wrote:
Denny Schreffler wrote:
The kind of focused tone production (mpc playing) and constant air flow that is possible with an UpSound cannot be done on a mpc alone, on a leadpipe, or on a trumpet.

Doesn't that also mean that it has little application to actual trumpet playing though? Also, in what way do you think does this contribute specifically to high range development?


►I’m pretty sure that Tom Brady (an American football player) spends a lot of time in his training regimen without a football in his hands, but, everything that he does in his training has direct application to his career. So it is with off-trumpet training devices and exercises of any kind.

►The UpSound could be helpful for the upper register for someone who is learning to refine and control the size of the aperture and coordinate the lips with the air.

►Back to Tom Brady, regarding performance training – a quote – Form is crucially important. When you’re focused on proper form, you’re only engaging the specific muscles you need for the movement you’re doing. In contrast, improper form develops when you get tired during a workout and your brain enlists the help of other muscles to help accomplish the task.

-Denny
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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
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Location: Endwell NY USA

PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hibidogrulez wrote:
... Also, in what way do you think does this contribute specifically to high range development?

---------------------------------------
'Social Distancing' for someone practicing (i.e. attempting / squealing) high range development when actually playing needs to be quite large.
Maybe the device makes it more practical for 'compassionate in-home use'.
_________________
King Super 20 (S2 1048, HN White)
Bach 7
The 'next note' is the most important one.
Don't take a '20 minute mouthpiece' to a 1 hour session.
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hibidogrulez
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Joined: 25 Jun 2020
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Denny Schreffler wrote:
►I’m pretty sure that Tom Brady (an American football player) spends a lot of time in his training regimen without a football in his hands, but, everything that he does in his training has direct application to his career. So it is with off-trumpet training devices and exercises of any kind.

►The UpSound could be helpful for the upper register for someone who is learning to refine and control the size of the aperture and coordinate the lips with the air.

►Back to Tom Brady, regarding performance training – a quote – Form is crucially important. When you’re focused on proper form, you’re only engaging the specific muscles you need for the movement you’re doing. In contrast, improper form develops when you get tired during a workout and your brain enlists the help of other muscles to help accomplish the task.

Your explanation still sounds like a contradiction to me. It's probably a cultural thing that I don't understand being a non-athletic European, but I don't see how not using the proper form can be beneficial when at the same time, it's is critical to use the proper form.

It's not to say that this device couldn't help building range. It might, but it doesn't seem to be specifically designed for this purpose, so one would expect a post like this in the 'Other Toys' forum. Recommending it here suggests that it's particularly helpful in developing High Range. That's a claim used in a lot of (false) advertisement so a skeptical response is to be expected.

JayKosta might be on to something though.
_________________
If it were the person playing rather than the gear they use, I would sound even worse.

Tpts: Olds Recording & Getzen 700 SP
Cornet: Olds Super
Mpcs: AR Resonance MC 40med, MSLead 40sm & MFlgl 42lg
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lipshurt
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Joined: 24 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It works pretty good
You can make one out of an old red and white straight mute.

Find a Bach style rubber washer for the top cap and glue to the small end of the mute. It will hug the shank of a mouthpiece and make a pretty good seal.

Then drill a couple 1/8 inch holes in the end of the mute. If it’s stuffy drill more holes. If you go too far, plug a hole. Great for the car. You can get exactly the resistance you want.
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Rod Haney
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Joined: 22 Aug 2015
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since i started this i will tell you how it helps me:

I tend blow too hard when i ascend and close off trying to get full volume. This device does not respond well to overblowing as the outlet is small, so it forces you to refine your aperture To get higher notes, this is one advantage i see. Another is that when i blow arpeggios (which i do a lot ) i can feel the partials much better and have learned to let this feel come thru on the horn much better than i did before. Also i can play with it hours a day when i watch TV or drive in the car, as long as i leave the room my wife has no issues and the upsound practice mute plays in tune from low f to hi f and is even quieter. All these factors are why i recommended it, but your mileage may vary. The fact i can get in an extra hour or 2 a day or nite makes it all worth it, but the help with efficient aperture and wind are equally useful to me.
2 things i picked up in lessons with Bobby Shew - air has to go toward top of cup, and you cant use as much air up top (you dont have to believe these things yourself but i do and that may explain my thoughts)

Rod
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hibidogrulez
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Joined: 25 Jun 2020
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Location: Europe

PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 'why' is quite helpful, thank you for the explanation.

Rod Haney wrote:
as long as i leave the room my wife has no issues

That's probably how most people with a trumpet-playing partner feel.
_________________
If it were the person playing rather than the gear they use, I would sound even worse.

Tpts: Olds Recording & Getzen 700 SP
Cornet: Olds Super
Mpcs: AR Resonance MC 40med, MSLead 40sm & MFlgl 42lg
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gbdeamer
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Joined: 31 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm typically a cynical person, so whenever i see the latest gadget that starts to trend I kind of roll my eyes and think "here we go again". Over the last 40 years I've seen lots and lots of devices that were supposed to be "the thing" to get you to that next level.

Obviously none of them were "the one" or we'd all be using it and playing like Arturo (or insert your own personal trumpet here).

With that said, I don't dismiss ANY of them as junk or useless. If it gets someone to do SOMETHING in their "off" time then it can be a benefit. Yes (eye roll) too much of anything is bad, so I'm not advocating using the kazoo thing referenced here 20 hours a day, but if it leads to you doing something extra then I'm for it.

I don't think the PETE is any kind of game-changer, but I'm playing a LOT less due to COVID, so having the PETE at my desk is a reminder to use it a little every day so that my practice sessions will be more valuable.



TL/DR - If you can afford it go for it. But whatever it is, it won't be THE thing that takes you to a different level and it can't substitute for practice.
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Yamahaguy
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Joined: 09 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rod Haney wrote:
I tend blow too hard when i ascend and close off trying to get full volume.
Realizing this is more than half the battle! The less you do it, the more efficiently you will play...
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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
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Location: Endwell NY USA

PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rod Haney wrote:
...
I tend blow too hard when i ascend and close off trying to get full volume. ...

-------------------
NEEDING to blow too hard might mean your lip(s) are overly tight or compressed so that excessive air pressure is needed to cause vibrations.
Can you 'shift' some mpc pressure from the upper lip onto the lower by using more lower teeth pressure - jaw usage, pressure but not necessarily noticeable jaw movement.
_________________
King Super 20 (S2 1048, HN White)
Bach 7
The 'next note' is the most important one.
Don't take a '20 minute mouthpiece' to a 1 hour session.
http://users.hancock.net/jkosta/2020_Dec_17_Snow_2_small.jpg
Big Snow 1 week before Christmas
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Rod Haney
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Joined: 22 Aug 2015
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2021 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Needing to blow harder was what I was taught at an early age and it worked up to hi f at one time but it failed me on Basie and Rich charts which were at times written over my top notes and pushed my endurance past comfort. I was taught trumpet by a very good tenor player, so feel and swing were thee but technique was left to me. Life happened for over 40 years and I picked the horn up again but prior health issues forced me to take a different approach. Reading and a few good lessons from Manley and Shew started me on another path that emphasized mechanics, less air and a less forceful approach. I never Meant to say that it was a magical device it simply addresses some issues that I have. Shew was Invaluable regarding the science of playing iwith the horn rather than ruling. The devices I spoke of help me with this, as one member mentioned it can probably be duplicated cheaply but with some work. I never Meant to say that it was a magical device it simply addresses some issues that I haveAnd I seem to be making some progress with them.
Rod
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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
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Location: Endwell NY USA

PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2021 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rod Haney wrote:
Needing to blow harder was what I was taught at an early age ...

-------------------------
yes for high register it IS necessary to 'blow harder' - I don't dispute that.
My concern was about using an embouchure technique that forced 'needing to blow TOO hard' (i.e. requiring more air pressure than could be produced).

When you find a solution, I'm sure that everyone would like to learn (me too!).
_________________
King Super 20 (S2 1048, HN White)
Bach 7
The 'next note' is the most important one.
Don't take a '20 minute mouthpiece' to a 1 hour session.
http://users.hancock.net/jkosta/2020_Dec_17_Snow_2_small.jpg
Big Snow 1 week before Christmas
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TrpPro
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Joined: 12 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2021 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rod Haney wrote:
Since i started this i will tell you how it helps me:

I tend blow too hard when i ascend and close off trying to get full volume.


Ascending and playing louder are two separate muscular functions. It would be more fundamental for a student to learn to do each muscular demand separately and THEN learn to do them together. It sounds like you're trying to learn both at the same time.

I'm sure many players are able to successfully learn to do both at the same time.
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