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Maurice Murphy on his Olds Recording.


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TMT
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That doesn't look like an E3L ... Different bell?
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TMT
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Vin DiBona"]Here is my take.
Wrong horn. It is not difficult or taxing. It needs to be on a cornet or trumpet - Bb or C.
The vibrato completely out of place.
Here is Herseth setting the bar way up. Start it at 8:59.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIrwglmYw3o&t=594s
There are other great recordings of this, but this one is still magic. Ormandy's with Phildelphia is outstanding as is the Szell Cleveland.
R. Tomasek[/quote]

Not difficult or taxing?!
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Tpt_Guy
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TMT wrote:
That doesn't look like an E3L ... Different bell?


I had the same thought at the opening of the piece, but at 8:51 the entire horn is visible. Sure looks like an E3L to me.
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Trumpetinberlin
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank trumpetera!
I disagree also. Most of the players in britain at that time had a brass band background where the use of vibrato was common. Thank god we have recordings from that times where the orchestras didn‘t sound the Same and had personality in their sound.
BTW., i love Herseths playing but he didn‘t Set the standard on everything.
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Steve A
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like Herseth's playing here, like everyone else, but I also really enjoyed Willie Lang's playing. There's a certain floating lightness, especially in the offstage solos that I thought was really beautiful. Also, while there's much to admire in the CSO performance, I think the LSO captures more of the playful and satirical aspect of this piece. Kijé's is supposed to be a joke, and personally, I hear that in the LSO, but not really in the CSO.
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dstpt
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 6:13 am    Post subject: Re: Maurice Murphy on his Olds Recording. Reply with quote

Vin DiBona wrote:
This certainly could go in the Video area, but the use of the trumpets in the London Symphony is very interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fr6eFP07uU0
Murphy on his Olds, the second on a Schilke, and the cornet part on a Schilke Eb. ...
R. Tomasek
Oh, I just noticed something very important: Go to 11:10 in the recording, pause it, and look just below the tuba player's wrist watch. You'll see in the slide a huge dent! I can't believe he performed on this instrument! How totally irresponsible of him to even appear on stage with a tuba in this condition!



Now what I want to know is if you feel the least bit tempted to take a look.
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Andy Del
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the armchair critics could take a second to breathe, maybe they could remember this was recorded in the 1970’s . Styles were different, much more nationalistic. Personalities were very much more to the fore in playing and not anything like the bland ‘unisound’ one can hear coming out of some of the major orchestras.

As to choice of instrument, it’s personal. Anyone thinking Herseth just used his C all the time should sit down and watch some YouTube footage of the orchestra. You’ll be surprised at what he would do! And it sounded great.

Lastly, the original clip should prove that different horns can be used together, can blend and don’t detract from a performance. The best orchestras in the world (and they ain’t in the US) care very little for WHAT one plays, but instead of HOW one plays.

Cheers

Andy
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Mike Sailors
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, I thought it sounded great!

I wonder if any of the patrons that night had the same thoughts as others on this thread. I'm imagining a couple of people walking out in disgust at the sight of an Eb trumpet being played in the opening 😂
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GordonH
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Umm, Willie Lang is great in this.
Not sure what the controversy is.
The piece is recalling military bugle and he evokes that wonderfully.
Previn must have been happy with it, and he was tough.
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dstpt
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2022 4:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GordonH wrote:
Umm, Willie Lang is great in this.
Not sure what the controversy is.
The piece is recalling military bugle and he evokes that wonderfully.
Previn must have been happy with it, and he was tough.

Agreed. When we view these great videos, are we listening "with our eyes?" If we eliminate the video and just listen to this recording, what are the primary things we critique as trumpet players? We might agree that it will be different than what conductors are critiquing and what most people attending a concert by a world-class orchestra are critiquing. What is the conductor first critiquing? The player doing the following, maybe?

1. hitting the right notes with correct rhythm
2. a “characteristic sound” with a clear sound/lip vibration, free of “crud” in the tone
3. spot-on intonation, or at least, "really close" most of the time
4. proper style / suitable musical interpretation of a given passage (dynamics, articulation, vibrato, various nuances of musical expressiveness, “time”/feel, et al)

The list could continue. I wonder what it’d be like for a great player like, say, Chris Martin to play some of these Prokofiev solo passages behind a screen for a few renowned conductors of our day (one conductor at a time). Let’s say Mr. Martin has a few different mpcs (including a “fluffy”) and his C tpt, a Bb cornet, and an Eb tpt. Of course, we can surmise that conductors will have preferences as to what they might prefer as they hear the different “matchings” of horns and mpcs, but would they really be able to tell a difference between a C tpt with a fluffy mpc and a Bb cornet with a shallow mpc?! It will all be in the same “ballpark” of tonation. The sounds he would make would still be something that the general public would say is part of a trumpet section. We as trumpet players can split hairs over this topic–and it can be very important at times–but I’d dare say that most conductors would only specify a certain tonal profile after they’ve heard one they really liked and found out from the player what he was using.

I shared this story before on TH…

...the story of Lawrence Foster years ago looking back at the section (of a major U.S. sym. orch.) during a rehearsal of the end of Petrushka. He sees the 1st trumpet using a modern piccolo trumpet with mute and says: "I want that on the big trumpet." The Principal player had his C trumpet sitting on a stand in front of him, but said, "Okay, Maestro. I'll have it here tomorrow." The next day, Foster seemed satisfied when he looked back during the run-through of that passage and saw what he thought was a big trumpet and said, “'Yes, that is what I want." (The Principal player was using his herald-bell piccolo!)

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=146821&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&sid=eebf5a6e7fb07c452415a20bdd06b80b

In that same TH thread, the topic of “composer’s intention” is also mentioned. How can we know what a composer “intended,” unless he expressed it in words, like in a mémoire, and even then, how specific would he need to be? The part is designated for “Cornet,” but what does that mean? Maybe he would have answered that it needs to be a "sweeter sound" than a normal orchestral trumpet sound. Could that be achieved with a deep mpc on a C tpt? Maybe. And what about the acoustics of the performance hall? Don’t some attenuate some of the “harshness” in a tpt sound, so that a C or Eb tpt would be “acceptable” by the conductor, fellow orchestra members, and audience? What if the performer feels “more secure” on an Eb tpt, that their note-accuracy alone would be more consistent? (Note that this is the first item in my list above.) I wonder if Maurice Murphey and the 2nd tpt player at the time had this rolling through their heads during the first rehearsal: “Hey mate, the part calls for cornet!” Maybe. Or maybe they thought: “Oh, cool…a new Schilke Eb tpt in the section! Perfect piece to give it a go!” Hahaha!
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GordonH
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2022 4:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In 1977 in the UK everyone was playing cornet parts on trumpet.
I can remember the novelty of a cornet in an orchestra in the late 80s.
It's more common now, but not common place.
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