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kerouack Veteran Member
Joined: 16 Nov 2001 Posts: 347 Location: Barcelona (Spain)
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Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2021 6:34 am Post subject: |
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Thank you, I was checking Chad McCullough last album. He has a very nice sound, and I don’t find it too airy sounding like other people who has videos playing the Estrema. I was wondering is that airy sound was mandatory playing the instrument until I listened Chad McCullough.
It is a pity not much people who has an AR resonance trumpet can give us their opinions here. |
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anrapa Veteran Member
Joined: 10 Dec 2005 Posts: 357 Location: Italy
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Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:32 am Post subject: |
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You are welcome!
I would say that none of the players I know have a "mandatory" airy sound on my horns, but it's true that many play jazz and actively work for such a sound no matter the horn they play.
I certainly don't have an airy sound on my horns (and I regret that, I would love to be able to do it!). _________________ AR Resonance Trumpets and Mouthpieces
Trumpets and mouthpieces: the ones I make |
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kerouack Veteran Member
Joined: 16 Nov 2001 Posts: 347 Location: Barcelona (Spain)
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Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 11:47 pm Post subject: |
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Right.
First time I listened to an Estrema a guy was playing with that very airy sound and that remained in my mind. But checking later other people using that same horn, like Chad, he has a beautiful non airy sound.
Checking bell materials, it is very difficult to tell which exact material each brand uses, with bronze is even more difficult, some brands say they use bronze but nobody knows what kind, even some brands they say bronze but when they describe it seems it is red brass, not bronze.
What can you tell us about the bronze you use for bells ? |
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anrapa Veteran Member
Joined: 10 Dec 2005 Posts: 357 Location: Italy
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Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 12:21 am Post subject: |
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Ciao!
I'm not going to tell which specific kind of bronze I use for my bells, trim kits, tuning slides and mouthpieces.
Nothing coming from Mars, it's material that anyone can source, but it is part of why my horn sound the way they do and I would like to keep being different from other makers. _________________ AR Resonance Trumpets and Mouthpieces
Trumpets and mouthpieces: the ones I make |
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kerouack Veteran Member
Joined: 16 Nov 2001 Posts: 347 Location: Barcelona (Spain)
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Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 6:27 am Post subject: |
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Hello,
I understand.
The exact material, like the thickness or the shape is part of the the design. But is great to know that is real bronze, not like with some other brands when they use the term “Bronze”. Of course the material is not everything.
It is a pity that there is not much people here who can give their opinions on the Arresonance horns, but is also normal with a very new brand. |
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Subtropical and Subpar Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2020 Posts: 625 Location: Here and there
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Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 6:58 am Post subject: |
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anrapa wrote: | Nothing coming from Mars, it's material that anyone can source, but it is part of why my horn sound the way they do and I would like to keep being different from other makers. |
Well, if it's not made of Martian bronze then I want no part of it. _________________ 1932 King Silvertone cornet
1936 King Liberty No. 2 trumpet
1958 Reynolds Contempora 44-M "Renascence" C
1962 Reynolds Argenta LB trumpet
1965 Conn 38A
1995 Bach LR18072
2003 Kanstul 991
2011 Schilke P5-4 B/G
2021 Manchester Brass flugel |
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anrapa Veteran Member
Joined: 10 Dec 2005 Posts: 357 Location: Italy
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Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:09 am Post subject: |
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It's European Bronze, we are in talks with Elon Musk for some from Mars but it's a bit pricey at the moment...
(of course it's real bronze, I never heard of companies calling bronze what isn't bronze) _________________ AR Resonance Trumpets and Mouthpieces
Trumpets and mouthpieces: the ones I make |
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Shawnino Veteran Member
Joined: 27 Jun 2020 Posts: 255
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Subtropical and Subpar Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2020 Posts: 625 Location: Here and there
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Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:56 am Post subject: |
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anrapa wrote: | It's European Bronze, we are in talks with Elon Musk for some from Mars but it's a bit pricey at the moment...
(of course it's real bronze, I never heard of companies calling bronze what isn't bronze) |
Ha! Well played. _________________ 1932 King Silvertone cornet
1936 King Liberty No. 2 trumpet
1958 Reynolds Contempora 44-M "Renascence" C
1962 Reynolds Argenta LB trumpet
1965 Conn 38A
1995 Bach LR18072
2003 Kanstul 991
2011 Schilke P5-4 B/G
2021 Manchester Brass flugel |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2440
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Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:09 am Post subject: |
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anrapa wrote: | Ciao!
I'm not going to tell which specific kind of bronze I use for my bells, trim kits, tuning slides and mouthpieces.
Nothing coming from Mars, it's material that anyone can source, but it is part of why my horn sound the way they do and I would like to keep being different from other makers. |
Very sorry to hear that.
The minor alloys and percentages in copper alloys are very significant in terms of how they behave in a trumpet bell (and leadpipe, and to an increasingly lesser degree body) - one of the three controlling factors alongside geometry and temper.
When I don't know how a horn is constructed, I cannot, short of playing it (which is certainly prohibitively expensive when you consider how much is out there), understand how it will interact with a player's unique characteristics and the sound/feel they seek. Which means, not being able to include AR when asked for advice on what to try.... _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
Last edited by OldSchoolEuph on Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:15 am; edited 1 time in total |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2440
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Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:14 am Post subject: |
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Depends on your perspective.
In the trumpet world, the amount of phosphorus included has been considered significant. Like brass, the percentage copper has a substantial impact on the dampening profile. Lead, though rarely mentioned, is also highly variable in bronze alloys. The addition of Zinc in some instances blurs the lines with brasses. _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3303 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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From what I could find about the 'naming difference' between brass and bronze, a product called 'bronze' never has LESS tin than zinc. And copper is always the primary element.
And there are numerous grades and 'formula' for brass and bronze - so to know precisely what metal is used in a product would require the maker to identify the material in specific detail.
A google search for metallurgy brass bronze
will yield hours of information .... (and I only skimmed thru it) _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Winghorn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2006 Posts: 2164 Location: Olympia, Washington
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Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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[.... When I don't know how a horn is constructed, I cannot, short of playing it (which is certainly prohibitively expensive when you consider how much is out there), understand how it will interact with a player's unique characteristics and the sound/feel they seek. Which means, not being able to include AR when asked for advice on what to try....[/quote]
Seriously? You need to know the bronze formulation used in an instrument before you will recommend it? |
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kevin_soda Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2015 Posts: 558 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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Winghorn wrote: | [.... When I don't know how a horn is constructed, I cannot, short of playing it (which is certainly prohibitively expensive when you consider how much is out there), understand how it will interact with a player's unique characteristics and the sound/feel they seek. Which means, not being able to include AR when asked for advice on what to try.... |
Seriously? You need to know the bronze formulation used in an instrument before you will recommend it?[/quote]
I mean, seriously? Has anyone ever questioned the composition of yellow brass to the point where they wouldn't even consider playing the instrument? I get that people have their preference but we're not talking about sterling silver here. Ridiculous. _________________ Kevin |
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theslawdawg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2008 Posts: 843 Location: Waikiki, Hawaii
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Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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OldSchoolEuph wrote: | anrapa wrote: | Ciao!
I'm not going to tell which specific kind of bronze I use for my bells, trim kits, tuning slides and mouthpieces.
Nothing coming from Mars, it's material that anyone can source, but it is part of why my horn sound the way they do and I would like to keep being different from other makers. |
Very sorry to hear that.
The minor alloys and percentages in copper alloys are very significant in terms of how they behave in a trumpet bell (and leadpipe, and to an increasingly lesser degree body) - one of the three controlling factors alongside geometry and temper.
When I don't know how a horn is constructed, I cannot, short of playing it (which is certainly prohibitively expensive when you consider how much is out there), understand how it will interact with a player's unique characteristics and the sound/feel they seek. Which means, not being able to include AR when asked for advice on what to try.... |
I will wait for that moment someone doesn't buy an AR Resonance because Ron Berndt didn't include one on his list of horns to try... _________________ My go-to Trumpet and Flugel: Thane.
Greg Black MPs |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12662 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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kevin_soda wrote: | Winghorn wrote: | OldSchoolEuph wrote: | .... When I don't know how a horn is constructed, I cannot, short of playing it (which is certainly prohibitively expensive when you consider how much is out there), understand how it will interact with a player's unique characteristics and the sound/feel they seek. Which means, not being able to include AR when asked for advice on what to try.... |
Seriously? You need to know the bronze formulation used in an instrument before you will recommend it? |
I mean, seriously? Has anyone ever questioned the composition of yellow brass to the point where they wouldn't even consider playing the instrument? I get that people have their preference but we're not talking about sterling silver here. Ridiculous. |
I typed a few responses to OSE's assertion and didn't post them on the off chance that I was in the minority in calling BS on this.
If these horns end up being desirable to the extreme it might be nice for future generations to know how they were made and what metals composed their parts, but, IMO, the builder is within his rights to withhold trade secrets. |
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581
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Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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In all fairness Ron said "...advice on what to try." He didn't use the word "recommend."
I think all he's saying is that if he doesn't have what he considers to be sufficient information about something he's not comfortable suggesting a player try that something. His threshold for "sufficient information" may very well exceed someone else's threshold but he is entitled to his standards in that regard.
At least that's the way I interpreted what he said. _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2440
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Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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kevin_soda wrote: | Winghorn wrote: | [.... When I don't know how a horn is constructed, I cannot, short of playing it (which is certainly prohibitively expensive when you consider how much is out there), understand how it will interact with a player's unique characteristics and the sound/feel they seek. Which means, not being able to include AR when asked for advice on what to try.... |
Seriously? You need to know the bronze formulation used in an instrument before you will recommend it? | [/quote]
Never said recommend. But I cannot predict an instrument's behavior without adequate information. The builder has every right to keep things mysterious. I'm just saying I am sorry to hear that because it frustrates my efforts to be helpful
kevin_soda wrote: | I mean, seriously? Has anyone ever questioned the composition of yellow brass to the point where they wouldn't even consider playing the instrument? |
They absolutely have. And then there are those still chasing horns made from shell casings - which is entertaining since that would amount to a random alloy.
kevin_soda wrote: | I get that people have their preference but we're not talking about sterling silver here. Ridiculous. |
Silver to yellow brass is one of the broader differences, but not as great as yellow brass vs copper for instance. There is great variation in bronze - some can be rather dead (or at least "dark"), some can be very flexible, and some will favor a harsh sound. I cannot give you an identical horn comparison to observe that though.
However, you can get ahold of 3 Conn 22Bs from 1923-1927, make sure the valves are all tight, no significant damage or repairs - especially to leadipipe and bell. Get one in the stock 70/30 yellow brass, one in the 80/20 gold brass, and one in the 64/36 French brass. (Most days all 3 can be found on EBay). If you cannot notice the difference in what they sound like side by side, or the differing effort necessary to make them sound alike, then you fall into one of two categories: skilled enough that you significantly compensate without noticing, or unskilled enough that the question is moot.
Another example would be to compare matching Stage470LTs or a similar Kanstul stencil in their three bells: phosphor bronze, copper, and yellow brass. The designer of that horn prefers one, I prefer another. And a non-phosphor bronze (which is structurally a challenge if nothing else) vs phosphor bronze would certainly make a difference. A bronze-brass makes a big difference from a phosphor bronze. Then there is the addition of lead option (how "stable at all dynamics" do you want the horn?) - definately alters the annealing plan.... You can go to extremes I suppose - someone could try naval brass and call it bronze. Lots of possibilities.
Of course, thickness, taper and temper are all huge variables too, but material is not insignificant. _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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kerouack Veteran Member
Joined: 16 Nov 2001 Posts: 347 Location: Barcelona (Spain)
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Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 1:47 am Post subject: |
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I agree that if we want to call something Bronze, it should have more Tin that Zinc, Bronze and Tin should be the base of it. If it is not like that would be very difficult or imposible to agree with different people about what is bronze and what is brass, cause all the components can be different and be in different percentages.
We have in TH, different threads already created to discuss bell materials, I read some of them and we can continue writing about that in them.
Arresonance told us the basic material he uses, I consider normal he does not want to share the exact formula in percentages, cause that’s his design and investigation, but there is enough information in the Wikipedia :
“Phosphor bronze is a member of the family of copper alloys. It is composed of copper that is alloyed with 0.5–11% of tin and 0.01–0.35% phosphorus, and may contain other elements to confer specific properties (e.g. lead at 0.5–3.0% to form free-machining phosphor bronze). Alloyed tin increases the corrosion resistance and strength of copper, while phosphorus increases its wear resistance and stiffness.“
I hope soon some Arresonance owners will participate here. |
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Claude1949 Veteran Member
Joined: 14 Aug 2018 Posts: 188 Location: maryland
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Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:59 am Post subject: |
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kevin_soda wrote: | They are pricey. |
Not compared to Monettes! And they seem to be superior to Monette! _________________ Claudio |
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