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Manuel de los Campos Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2004 Posts: 654 Location: Amsterdam, the Netherlands
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Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:40 am Post subject: |
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OldSchoolEuph wrote: |
When I don't know how a horn is constructed, I cannot, short of playing it (which is certainly prohibitively expensive when you consider how much is out there), understand how it will interact with a player's unique characteristics and the sound/feel they seek. |
Even if you know the secrets An Rapa is hiding for you you will not / cannot understand how it will interact with a player's unique characteristics and the sound/feel they seek since the horn is not a major factor in this play; Me and a friend of mine once both played a Vincent Bach 180-37 from the same era and with the same mouthpiece we sounded complete different.
It's the man behind the gun _________________ Technology alone is a poor substitute for experience. (Richard Sachs) |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2441
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Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:50 am Post subject: |
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Manuel de los Campos wrote: | OldSchoolEuph wrote: |
When I don't know how a horn is constructed, I cannot, short of playing it (which is certainly prohibitively expensive when you consider how much is out there), understand how it will interact with a player's unique characteristics and the sound/feel they seek. |
Even if you know the secrets An Rapa is hiding for you you will not / cannot understand how it will interact with a player's unique characteristics and the sound/feel they seek since the horn is not a major factor in this play; Me and a friend of mine once both played a Vincent Bach 180-37 from the same era and with the same mouthpiece we sounded complete different.
It's the man behind the gun |
Absolutely. But if that man is left handed, he'll be better off with an ambi-safety than a standard left side only.
Finding equipment that works "best" is unique for every player, just because of what you point out. Knowing where to start requires some basic understanding of the options. _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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anrapa Veteran Member
Joined: 10 Dec 2005 Posts: 357 Location: Italy
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Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:13 am Post subject: |
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Manuel de los Campos wrote: | OldSchoolEuph wrote: |
When I don't know how a horn is constructed, I cannot, short of playing it (which is certainly prohibitively expensive when you consider how much is out there), understand how it will interact with a player's unique characteristics and the sound/feel they seek. |
Even if you know the secrets An Rapa is hiding for you you will not / cannot understand how it will interact with a player's unique characteristics and the sound/feel they seek since the horn is not a major factor in this play; Me and a friend of mine once both played a Vincent Bach 180-37 from the same era and with the same mouthpiece we sounded complete different.
It's the man behind the gun |
Ciao Manuel,
I'm sorry you feel like I holding secrets away from you.
I am pretty open about how my mouthpieces and horns are made and how they are conceived. Everyone knows where I source bells and valve blocks (because I use the best and most expensive components you can buy in Europe), the rest is made in house.
You can't say the same about many other makers.
I also feel that I shouldn't send DXF files of my mouthpieces or horns away just to sound less "secret" to the trumpet community.
There's a line between being open and being dumb, my things have been already widely copied against my will and I'm not happy helping even more people doing it.
At the same time, I totally agree that the man behind the gun is 90% of how a horn or a mouthpiece sounds.
Those who really know how to handle a gun choose nonetheless to pick the best gun they can find to improve their chances of hitting the target.
I really wish the trumpet community to be as kind as possible, I don't want to hurt you with my words, if you feel like I did please let me know how I can fix that. Also, take into account that my mother tongue is Italian, it's very likely that my thoughts aren't conveyed in the best possible way.
I'll do my best to improve in that department too. _________________ AR Resonance Trumpets and Mouthpieces
Trumpets and mouthpieces: the ones I make |
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Manuel de los Campos Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2004 Posts: 654 Location: Amsterdam, the Netherlands
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Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:44 am Post subject: |
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anrapa wrote: |
Ciao Manuel,
I'm sorry you feel like I holding secrets away from you. |
Don't worry, it is mr. OldSchoolEuph chi vuole sapere i piu minuti particolari, I rather experience a trompet than knowing every detail of the construction and materials used
anrapa wrote: | I don't want to hurt you with my words, if you feel like I did please let me know how I can fix that |
3 bottles of Gattinara Travaglini will do _________________ Technology alone is a poor substitute for experience. (Richard Sachs) |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2441
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Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:09 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Manuel de los Campos"] anrapa wrote: | it is mr. OldSchoolEuph chi vuole sapere i piu minuti particolari, I rather experience a trompet than knowing every detail of the construction and materials used |
I too would rather experience playing a horn - there is no real substitute. Perhaps you have the money to buy one of every high end horn out there (it was recently implied on this site that I should buy every Schilke model - yeah, does anyone have that kind of disposable cash?)
So, if I don't know anyone who plays one, and I don't have access to any retailer that stocks one, and someone is asking me my advice on what to try (the original context of my post), if I do not know the basics of bell density and, depending on annealing, hardness, I cannot predict if a horn will have the characteristics a given player is looking for and would benefit from.
Of course, I would probably dig into leadpipe taper (just the general slow, fast, venturi size, etc.) as well - but the bell is what makes the sound people hear - as it reacts to the unique inputs of the player. (AR leadpipes appear to be quite advanced - I've only seen similar from Taylor.)
The horns in question sound like they could be quite good. Al of the leading edge tech these days seems to be focused in stable heavy horns. AR bucks that trend by building lightweight as was the rage a decade plus ago, but still pursuing advanced efficient design concepts - which heavyweight builders must do to keep the horn from being a brick, but in a lightweight, the possibilities are intriguing. It frustrates me that I do not know enough about them to ever have them on my radar. That was my point. And it is not a minute detail. _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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anrapa Veteran Member
Joined: 10 Dec 2005 Posts: 357 Location: Italy
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Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:10 am Post subject: |
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I wish I could have one of my horns in every music shop
That would require a few hundreds horns a year only to cover the a small part of the world. I will never be able to make that many, let alone selling that amount!
What I've seen happening in a few places in the world is my customers lending their horns to friends to let them try. I've sold many in Australia this way, but again, you can't cover the whole world with this approach.
Most of the times it takes a brave player pulling the trigger to start a cascade effect. This is why great players are so important for a business like mine, they sort of say: "I can testify that these horn can be played to a high level".
That won't mean at all that all people will like it but it certainly tells the world that it's not just another short lived craze.
On the topic of materials/specs: I still think that there's way too much expectation from those things.
So many customers visited me during these almost 7 years and almost all of them came with an idea and walked away with a different knowledge.
Words can only try to explain concepts; chemistry, physics, geometry can only partially predict what something will sound or feel and most of the times it will be different from what we built in our minds.
I'm a car head and I've watched all sorts of reviews about my cars of the past. Not a single one has pointed out the things that are so obvious to me.
The same happens with horns, I hear and feel things that most people won't notice.
And I'm sure I will never feel or notice things that are obvious to others.
Will I avoid trying a horn because "the specs don't meet my requirements"? Not at all
I'm not a wine guy, due to my other job I've rarely drunk in my life, yet I prefer wines like Brunello di Montalcino, but many friends of mine like the Gattinara. _________________ AR Resonance Trumpets and Mouthpieces
Trumpets and mouthpieces: the ones I make |
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JVL Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Feb 2016 Posts: 894 Location: Nissa, France
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Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:31 am Post subject: |
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Primitivo Salento, Nero d'Avola, Librandi per me (The Brunello i bought in San Gimignano in 1 before covid, is still in the closet !)
Pace e salute a tutti / Peace & health to everyone |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2441
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Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:57 am Post subject: |
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You guys have me convinced that these horns are worth knowing more about. The problem then is a practical one. I find these designs really interesting, but buying just one, never mind at least 4 to understand the portfolio, $7,500 horn for curiosity – not an option on my meager budget. So I looked to see if there was a dealer with the line in stock in the US to visit should I be nearby.
Of the actual stores in the US where one might visit and compare – also against other makes: Thompson Music showed just 2 horns when searched by menu (their site returns Stomvi mouthpieces if you put AR Resonance in the search tool…) As one might expect from Josh Landress, his highly professional site indeed finds AR products from the search and the menus – but only has one used trumpet. Attempting to visit the site for Oscar Utterström triggers security blocks in both Explorer and Chrome – very demotivating for any prospective customer. Springfield Music returns nothing when searching for AR Resonance, and indeed the menu method shows no trumpets of any kind in inventory.
I do understand that today, like never before, intellectual property is stolen and products cloned cheap. I would point out though that all one need do to learn the basics that I am talking about, those things that influence how the horn interacts with the player in basic ways, is to buy a horn, do some metrology to model the tapers, measure the material thicknesses to derive the original stock gauge, and snip a piece out of the bell tail to learn the make-up of the alloy. Cloners do this all the time - trumpet players don't.
The real secret, the part of the horn that cannot be found by buying one and taking it apart, is the fabrication. What bending media is used, how is solder applied, what is the sequence of assembly, what is the sequence of bell fabrication steps - the working and annealing cookbook. You cannot learn these things by reverse engineering, you can only guess and painstakingly try to match results through trial and error. That is the real protection for a maker, not the source of the metal or the dimensions of the mandrels.
Sharing more information about a product helps the prospective customer identify if it is a fit - but that is indeed the right of the maker to do, or not do, as he sees fit. _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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anrapa Veteran Member
Joined: 10 Dec 2005 Posts: 357 Location: Italy
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Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:14 am Post subject: |
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I can’t help you much with those things but I’m happy to tell you that on Monday I’m sending 3 horns to Springfield Music.
One Suprema, one Feroce and one Leggera.
Josh Landress has one Romantica.
Chad McCullough has an Estrema and will soon get another horn.
I have at least 5 customers with my horns in the NYC area that you might try to contact too.
Here in my local shop they only have one Bach 37, no 43, 72, 65, Vindabona, reverse or light weight models.
And last time I asked for the specs about Bach horns they replied: “it’s silver plated”.
_________________ AR Resonance Trumpets and Mouthpieces
Trumpets and mouthpieces: the ones I make |
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delano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2023 10:34 am Post subject: |
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Old thread so an old video special for cheering up stuartissimo, the guy so far away here and still he lives so close to me that I cycle several times a week through his village. This video is for him and also to show my good feelings towards AR Resonance. Beautiful and powerful playing by a guy that is IMO one of the leading jazz trumpetplayers of this time and maybe the best flügelhornplayer in jazz nowadays.
And the AR horns perform superbly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNQHriNLvcQ&list=RDEMmXOSCucBdqOlI-LL3F5f1w&start_radio=1&rv=tJErVxzuMGE&ab_channel=anrapa |
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nieuwguyski Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Feb 2002 Posts: 2349 Location: Santa Cruz County, CA
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2441
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Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2023 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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Well that's why everyone wants ever more regulation, because some company somewhere has to twist the English language (and not always companies I suppose). That is red brass, not bronze, as far as instrument making is concerned. What a particular maker claims in the absence of any liability for those claims, I cannot say. _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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nieuwguyski Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Feb 2002 Posts: 2349 Location: Santa Cruz County, CA
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Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2023 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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OldSchoolEuph wrote: | Well that's why everyone wants ever more regulation, because some company somewhere has to twist the English language (and not always companies I suppose). That is red brass, not bronze, as far as instrument making is concerned. What a particular maker claims in the absence of any liability for those claims, I cannot say. |
Allow me to restate one thing: "Decades ago I was told, by an employee of a well-known brass instrument company, that their 'bronze' bells were made from 'commercial bronze.'"
I looked up "commercial bronze" on the Internet (circa 2000) and found exactly the same 90/10 copper/zinc description, though certainly on a different website than I posted above.
My point is that the metals industry has been using the label "commercial bronze" for a 90% copper/10% zinc alloy for decades (that I can personally attest to) and who knows how much longer than that.
Is it really any worse for a musical instrument company to call it bronze than to call it Rey-O-Loy? _________________ J. Notso Nieuwguyski |
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anrapa Veteran Member
Joined: 10 Dec 2005 Posts: 357 Location: Italy
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Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2023 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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Bronze is bronze, red brass is red brass.
Or is there anyone calling Bronze what is red brass? _________________ AR Resonance Trumpets and Mouthpieces
Trumpets and mouthpieces: the ones I make |
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Goby Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Jun 2017 Posts: 650
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Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2023 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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anrapa wrote: | Bronze is bronze, red brass is red brass.
Or is there anyone calling Bronze what is red brass? |
Bach calls red brass bronze on their commercial model. Calicchio's Z bells were referred to as lightweight bronze in their catalog, and they are lightweight red brass. |
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