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Upgrading a horn for my daughter


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lurchbird
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 1:23 pm    Post subject: Upgrading a horn for my daughter Reply with quote

Hello everyone. I'm new here, and I'm a drummer (don't hold that against me!). My daughter has been playing on a Yamaha YTR-200ADii for almost 4 years now, and is looking to upgrade her horn for high school (she plays both concert and jazz). I have researched this forum extensively, as well as many friends, teachers, and other online sources. I have taken her to play (so far) over 20 trumpets, about 1/3 new and 2/3 used.

The top of my budget is ~$2,000 for used (I have a trombone player and Tenor Sax player that I just upgraded horns for - and I thought drums were expensive!).

I try to support local dealers here in IL, and I trust they are close to fair in their pricing of used horns. But, how do I go about pricing from private sellers? My daughter loved a new Bach Strad 43 she played, but $3,000 is above my budget. I just found online a seller with a used Bach Strad 43, from about 1970-71. How would I price this? I haven't seen it yet, but it's a long drive to get there. I'd want an expectation of price before going to check it out.

Thanks!
Mark
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tptptp
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think a used silver plate Bach Strad without major repairs, big dents, or much silver wear could be found for $1500-2000. It would be great for her. Strad 37 vs 43 won't make any difference at her level---Heck, I've been at it for 55 years, and I have both. They both play well.
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adagiotrumpet
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Upgrading a horn for my daughter Reply with quote

lurchbird wrote:
Hello everyone. I'm new here, and I'm a drummer (don't hold that against me!). My daughter has been playing on a Yamaha YTR-200ADii for almost 4 years now, and is looking to upgrade her horn for high school (she plays both concert and jazz). I have researched this forum extensively, as well as many friends, teachers, and other online sources. I have taken her to play (so far) over 20 trumpets, about 1/3 new and 2/3 used.

The top of my budget is ~$2,000 for used (I have a trombone player and Tenor Sax player that I just upgraded horns for - and I thought drums were expensive!).

I try to support local dealers here in IL, and I trust they are close to fair in their pricing of used horns. But, how do I go about pricing from private sellers? My daughter loved a new Bach Strad 43 she played, but $3,000 is above my budget. I just found online a seller with a used Bach Strad 43, from about 1970-71. How would I price this? I haven't seen it yet, but it's a long drive to get there. I'd want an expectation of price before going to check it out.

Thanks!
Mark


I agree that you can't go wrong with a Bach. And there is nothing wrong per se with a 50 year old Bach. But I would suggest that before you purchase a horn from the early 70's, you should have it thoroughly checked out by a qualified technician to be sure that the horn hasn't suffered any major trauma and/or verify that the compression is good.
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Tuningbell
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Go to EBAY. Enter Bach 43 and then you can get an idea of the second hand market by condition. You can do this for almost any make and model.
Also check out Dillon Music in NJ, Horntrader.com both reputable sellers that might have a horn at your price and offer a trial. Dillons has 4 Bach 43’s available now. $1595 used.
Peninsula Music has one for sale Demo Like New for $2500 on EBay
Others in good condition around $1600.00
A word of caution in the second hand market. Check to make sure lead pipe and bell are the specs you want. Also that there have been no modifications to the horn. There are a lot of aftermarket parts and custom modifications done to Bach strads to make them play “better” for example one of the Dillon Bach’s for sale has an aftermarket M/K tuning slide. This can affect the cost and playability, sound etc. I find some aftermarket parts are an improvement and others not so much. YMMV.


Last edited by Tuningbell on Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Subtropical and Subpar
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know it isn't the sweet spot of their manufacturing timeline, but I feel like I see Bachs from the 1990s and early 2000s go for well under $2,000 all the time. I just checked Austin Custom Brass and they have over a dozen used Bachs in your budget, including a 43 from the mid 2010s.
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pc2001197
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am in DeKalb but travels to Chicago often. I have a 43* corp. bell mounted on a standard weight early Elkhart body if you're interested. This horn has just been through a valve job by Mark Metzler so they're smooth as silk! PM me or find us on http://www.facebook.com/AntiqueBrassExchange for more info!
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lurchbird
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pc2001197 wrote:
I have a 43* corp. bell mounted on a standard weight early Elkhart body


I read to stay away from lightweight bells, as they are more prone to dings and dents by younger, less experiences players. Although my daughter is MUCH more careful than her brothers. How does a lightweight bell affect tone? (I hope I'm asking the right question). My daughter kept saying that the new 43 she played had the best tone and she says the 2nd place horn in her trials is nowhere near the same tone. Plus, the new 43 just played so easily for her after 2 hours of playing and testing other horns.

I'll PM you so that I'm not violating any rules on my first post!

Thanks.
Mark
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trickg
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Question - how good is she? I get that you want to upgrade her, but you have to ask yourself a couple of questions about that.

1.) is she GOOD, or is she just good?
2.) do you foresee her continuing with it past high school in any capacity?
3.) do you think she's at a place where a new horn might inspire additional passion toward playing? (I'll get back to this)
4.) does she take care of her things and is she responsible?

If you can answer "yes" to those questions, dig deep, and figure out a way to get her the brand new Bach Strad 43 that she liked. Here's why.

Look at it like an investment in your daughter, because it is. What is that worth to you?

Also, I've played Bachs that run the range from excellent to alarmingly bad same models, and it didn't matter if they were old or brand new. If you found a specific horn that she likes, then that's the one.

I have my own story with this. My son decided he wanted to play guitar, so we did the basic $100 starter guitar, and a year or so later whetted his appetite a bit more with a used guitar of a different model I picked up for $200. All along the way he was progressing, and I was starting to really see some promise budding in his playing.

At the time he was really into AC/DC and Angus Young was his guitar hero. Angus played a Gibson SG, and he was getting close to the same age that I was when my parents put a pro-level horn in my hands. Quick background - I've been a paid-to-play player since I was 17, had a 10 year active duty Army band career, 7 of those years in a premier unit, and I'm still finishing out my career in a National Guard band. I've done a lot of playing over the years. In any case, getting that new horn really made me obsessive about playing, and it's what ultimately spurred me to do something more with the horn outside of HS. I'm 50 - still playing and gigging, but I digress.

Back to my son.

We went to Guitar Center to look at genuine Gibson SG's, which at the time could be had for about $1000 - give or take. So my son is sitting there plugged in and fiddling with this SG, and like a dumb*** I say to the sales guy, "Hey - for grins, let's A/B this against a Les Paul." He pulls this Honeyburst Les Paul standard off the wall, hands it to my son who plugged it in....

Dumb move. That Les Paul just growled. At this point I'm thinking, "there's no way I'm going to spend $2200 on a Gibson Les Paul for this kid." So we start looking at Les Paul Studios - the $1000 variant of the Les Paul Standard - same body, same pickups (supposedly) same woods....(supposedly)

Not one single one of them sounded like that Honeyburst Les Paul Standard. Not even close.

The guitar was well outside of my budget by a full grand or more, so I had a decision to make.

I bought the Honeyburst Les Paul Standard - I put it on a one-year same as cash financing. Honestly not much different than my parents buying the Bach Strad.

Here's what happened. The kid launched himself into playing guitar. Like obsessively. He'd come home from school and play until his fingers got sore. Take a break, play more, eat dinner, go play more....

At this point the kid is a better musician than me. He's been part of a signed indie band that toured all of the nation - I think he's been on 6 or 7 national tours, 6 or 7 regional tours.

I don't have a single ounce of regret going over budget. You be the judge - he's not the singer, but if you hear anything cool in the lead guitar lines, he wrote it, recorded it, toured it....


Link


In this one he's about 18 and my daughter singing is 15 (they are 26 and 23 now, respectively.)


Link


Get the Bach 43.
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Ed Kennedy
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeRttksjGho Played on a Bach 43 by Warren Leuning (RIP) Also a great jazz and lead player, 1st call in the LA studios. I hear that Gary Grant plays one as well. These guys show up for a session never knowing what style they'll be playing. The Bach 43 is VERY versatile. The lightweight has more sizzle but less core. The 25L has similar characteristics, Worth investigating. I'd find her a good used 43 $1500 - $2K.
The late 60's - early 70's models are the model for the new artist 190 series. Good ones are exceptional.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trickg wrote:
Question - how good is she? I get that you want to upgrade her, but you have to ask yourself a couple of questions about that.

...

If you can answer "yes" to those questions, dig deep, and figure out a way to get her the brand new Bach Strad 43 that she liked. Here's why.

Look at it like an investment in your daughter, because it is. What is that worth to you?

...

Get the Bach 43.

Great post, and I agree 100%.

Having play tested a 20 trumpets is a pretty good sample. It's not as much as you could do at say an ITG convention, but frankly, that's kinda too loud to get a great feel and who knows about this environment (virus, etc) and it's probably not local to you.

This is normally were I bring up horns I think are great, (the new Gen II Xeno, anything by Shires) and how I think Bach's aren't amazing to me. But, she's played horns and my opinion doesn't really matter much in the grand scheme of things, since I'm not the one that will be playing it. (Also, I do think 43's are nice for Bachs - I'd probably pick one, if I had to)

I still have my pro Yamaha that I got in 9th grade. While not played often at this point, it was worked very hard for 20 years of it's existence and is still a good horn. It was well worth the money.
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trickg, that's a great story--a proud dad for sure.

Trumpet is a nice instrument in that you can play one for decades and they don't require the same ongoing costs as reed or string instruments (no reeds or strings). I do also appreciate the three kid conundrum, so I'm not 100% what to recommend there.
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Tuningbell
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In addition to my last post, I certainly don’t think your daughter should get any instrument without playing it first. If she fell in love with a particular Bach 43. That’s the one she should play and you should buy if you can afford it. No guarantee the next one she plays will be a clone.

Instruments have personalities and manufacturing tolerances that make the same make and model feel and sound different. This is certainly a larger variable on Bach horns vs say Yamaha. Bach’s are funny, get a good one and you can be very happy. Get a dog and well all those aftermarket parts I mentioned above you’ll likely be a customer!
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Jerry
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tuningbell wrote:
In addition to my last post, I certainly don’t think your daughter should get any instrument without playing it first. If she fell in love with a particular Bach 43. That’s the one she should play and you should buy if you can afford it. No guarantee the next one she plays will be a clone.

Instruments have personalities and manufacturing tolerances that make the same make and model feel and sound different. This is certainly a larger variable on Bach horns vs say Yamaha. Bach’s are funny, get a good one and you can be very happy. Get a dog and well all those aftermarket parts I mentioned above you’ll likely be a customer!

Agree 100%.
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RUenvsci
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ed Kennedy wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeRttksjGho Played on a Bach 43 by Warren Leuning (RIP) Also a great jazz and lead player, 1st call in the LA studios. I hear that Gary Grant plays one as well. These guys show up for a session never knowing what style they'll be playing. The Bach 43 is VERY versatile. The lightweight has more sizzle but less core. The 25L has similar characteristics, Worth investigating. I'd find her a good used 43 $1500 - $2K.
The late 60's - early 70's models are the model for the new artist 190 series. Good ones are exceptional.


Can’t agree with you more about the early Elkharts! I have a 43* early Elkhart with 43 lead pipe. When I found it, it was missing the third valve and tuning slide. Once I got those parts replaced and had a patch installed on the bend of the bell, it played EXTREMELY well. I bought it with the intention to restore and sell it, but it’s too good of a player to let go!
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Jerry
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lurchbird wrote:
pc2001197 wrote:
I have a 43* corp. bell mounted on a standard weight early Elkhart body


I read to stay away from lightweight bells, as they are more prone to dings and dents by younger, less experiences players.

A modern Bach with a lightweight bell is the same weight as the standard Mount Vernon Bach trumpets, considered to be the Holy Grail of Bach trumpets by many. It's not all that light. There are trumpets with much lighter bells than a modern Bach lightweight.

If she's generally pretty careful with her stuff, then I would not be concerned.
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Jerry
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tuningbell wrote:
Go to EBAY. Enter Bach 43 and then you can get an idea of the second hand market by condition. You can do this for almost any make and model.
Also check out Dillon Music in NJ, Horntrader.com both reputable sellers that might have a horn at your price and offer a trial. Dillons has 4 Bach 43’s available now. $1595 used.
Peninsula Music has one for sale Demo Like New for $2500 on EBay
Others in good condition around $1600.00
A word of caution in the second hand market. Check to make sure lead pipe and bell are the specs you want. Also that there have been no modifications to the horn. There are a lot of aftermarket parts and custom modifications done to Bach strads to make them play “better” for example one of the Dillon Bach’s for sale has an aftermarket M/K tuning slide. This can affect the cost and playability, sound etc. I find some aftermarket parts are an improvement and others not so much. YMMV.

If you decide to get one of those used Bach 43s from Dillon, ask them to play each one and send your daughter the best playing one. Dillon staff (at least before covid) are serious players.
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RUenvsci
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 7:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Upgrading a horn for my daughter Reply with quote

lurchbird wrote:
Hello everyone. I'm new here, and I'm a drummer (don't hold that against me!). My daughter has been playing on a Yamaha YTR-200ADii for almost 4 years now, and is looking to upgrade her horn for high school (she plays both concert and jazz). I have researched this forum extensively, as well as many friends, teachers, and other online sources. I have taken her to play (so far) over 20 trumpets, about 1/3 new and 2/3 used.

The top of my budget is ~$2,000 for used (I have a trombone player and Tenor Sax player that I just upgraded horns for - and I thought drums were expensive!).

I try to support local dealers here in IL, and I trust they are close to fair in their pricing of used horns. But, how do I go about pricing from private sellers? My daughter loved a new Bach Strad 43 she played, but $3,000 is above my budget. I just found online a seller with a used Bach Strad 43, from about 1970-71. How would I price this? I haven't seen it yet, but it's a long drive to get there. I'd want an expectation of price before going to check it out.

Thanks!
Mark


Play-test any instrument before purchasing, and it’s best to have several to play test at the same time. Best setting would be a brass instrument shop. Based on your budget, I think you should be looking at used trumpets. Note the condition of any used instruments, and check for red rot because it only gets worse over time. It would be ideal if there’s a repair tech on site who can help verify condition of the horn. I’m sure the private seller has a great horn, but you really need to compare horns real-time to be confident in your decision.
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you're patient you'll find a used Bach Strad in excellent mechanical condition (no valve or other mechanical issues) with 100% of the original silver plating and no dents or dings for under $2,000.

The mechanics can be evaluated by a tech who can check the compression and the valve action. If those check out the horn will play fine and its capabilities will exceed the capabilities of even the most advanced player.

Keep in mind that the most critical part of trumpet playing is the skill of the player. Too much emphasis is placed on the horn and mouthpiece. A great player will sound great on any decent trumpet in good mechanical condition (even a good student horn) playing any mouthpiece that reasonably fits that player.
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hibidogrulez
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:11 am    Post subject: Re: Upgrading a horn for my daughter Reply with quote

lurchbird wrote:
My daughter loved a new Bach Strad 43 she played, but $3,000 is above my budget.

Forgive my non-expert advice here but in my opinion, the single most important thing when picking a trumpet is that it 'clicks'. A good instrument inspires the player to get the most out of it, to practice every moment they can (kinda like trickg's guitar story). If their eyes light up every time they open the case..that is the right instrument. If you're lucky, it's a cheap one...

Sadly, not every instrument of the same make is actually the same (there are numerous discussions about this on trumpet herald) so you can't just pickup a random cheaper Bach Strad 43 online and hope it'll be the same.

Your budget concerns are valid and it's of course easy for us to say how much you should spend. A good Bach strad will likely keep most of its value if it's treated properly, so you should be able to get a good part of your investment back should she decide to quite after all. Have you considered having your daughter get a partime job and (partially) pay for it herself?
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Ed Kennedy
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

B&S (quality German made) clone of Bach 43:

https://www.trumpetherald.com/marketplace.php?task=detail&id=126642&s=B-S-Challenger-II-3143
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