| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
LittleRusty
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 12657
Location: Gardena, Ca
|
 Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2021 10:30 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| The picture is not completely in focus, but the number on the bell looks like a 45, not 43. But my eyes are old and you have the instrument... |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Brassnose
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2016
Posts: 2047
Location: Germany
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2021 11:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
As a 43 player for almost 30 years, I approve  And it seems to be an early Elkhart, which I think is a nice add-on, at least on the mythos side of things ...
_________________
2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
deleted_user_687c31b
New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996
Posts: 0
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 12:03 am Post subject: |
|
|
| lurchbird wrote: | | UPDATE: We bought the used Bach Strad 43. My daughter immediately knew that this was her horn |
Congrats. Your daughter is lucky to have such an amazing dad who will go through great lengths to make her happy. Now find a bass player and start jamming together.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ed Kennedy
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 3187
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:36 am Post subject: |
|
|
| hibidogrulez wrote: | | lurchbird wrote: | | UPDATE: We bought the used Bach Strad 43. My daughter immediately knew that this was her horn |
Congrats. Your daughter is lucky to have such an amazing dad who will go through great lengths to make her happy. Now find a bass player and start jamming together. |
Bravo!! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
trickg
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002
Posts: 5675
Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:47 am Post subject: |
|
|
| lurchbird wrote: | UPDATE: We bought the used Bach Strad 43.
In my original post, I asked about pricing a used horn to set an expectation of price before a long drive. As a drummer, I was also unsure about how best to evaluate the condition of a used horn, including red rot and valve compression. The horn had recently been ultrasonically cleaned, so I contacted the store that had cleaned it and asked them about the condition. They said it was in good shape, but not "Like New". Well, after trying 30 horns locally, my daughter and I made the drive to check out this horn, cash in pocket. My daughter immediately knew that this was her horn, and I made my cash offer, which was accepted. To our eyes, the horn looks "Barely Used". The seller said her dad played it in high school, and not really that much afterwards.
Thank you to everyone who replied to my post, to everyone in this forum (I probably read 100 posts here), and to trickg and others who really pushed to get the horn for my daughter that she really wanted.
As far as the horn, the seller said it was from 1970-71, but I think it is after that. The cleaning instructions that came with the horn have a revision date of 12-71 and say "Division of Magnavox Company", and the serial number is 704xx. I'm including a couple of pictures in the link below. The bell has "Corporation" on it, which I've read helps to date it, but I don't know what that means.
Thanks again everyone!
Mark
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/w0s2bh1gayjqfx8/AAD1rfKL_j1wSaOY2DVLdil6a?dl=0 |
This is great news! If you managed to snag an early 70s Strad in almost like new condition, that's akin to finding an old Rogers, Leedy or Slingerland drum kit in the same condition. That's going to be a fantastic trumpet for her all around, and you got it for a good bit less than what it would have cost new. (Can't say the same the same about some of those old Rogers or Slingys though.  )
It also has a story - it's got to be cool playing a horn that's 50 years old - way way older than she is.
Well done done Dad!
_________________
Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
lurchbird
Regular Member
Joined: 06 Jan 2021
Posts: 11
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 8:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
| hibidogrulez wrote: | | Congrats. Your daughter is lucky to have such an amazing dad who will go through great lengths to make her happy. |
Thanks. I've enjoyed the process as well upgrading first a trombone, then a tenor sax, and now a trumpet
| hibidogrulez wrote: | | Now find a bass player and start jamming together. |
I know! My horn section is ready and waiting!
Mark |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
lurchbird
Regular Member
Joined: 06 Jan 2021
Posts: 11
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 8:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
| trickg wrote: | | This is great news! If you managed to snag an early 70s Strad in almost like new condition, that's akin to finding an old Rogers, Leedy or Slingerland drum kit in the same condition. That's going to be a fantastic trumpet for her all around, and you got it for a good bit less than what it would have cost new. (Can't say the same the same about some of those old Rogers or Slingys though. ) |
When I was in high school back in the early 80's, I stopped at a garage sale and saw an old drum for $10. I only had $8 in my pocket and they sold it to me. Turned out to be a Gene Krupa Radio King, single ply maple snare drum. My HS Jazz Band just happened to be going to the Slingerland factory on a tour (they were in Niles IL by this time), and I brought it along. They offered my $100 on the spot, despite the years of wear, including scratches and rim dents!
And speaking of dents... When we got home with the Bach Strad, my daughter emailed her band director about it and her director sort of freaked out. She told my daughter to open the slides, check the valves, look for dents, etc. (her director is also a trumpet player). While I'm not an expert, I think I had done my research enough, including directly contacting the store that had done the ultrasonic cleaning to review with them their clean bill of health that they had given the horn. They told me it was not in "Like New" condition, but they didn't mention the small dents. So at the behest of her director, my daughter and I examined it again, this time in good light, and I did see the small dents in the bell flare. My daughter was not phased by it at all, as she had already seen worse in some of the 30+ trumpets she had tried. And to her (and my) ears, the dents did not affect the playing at all. I still believe I got a great deal, based on what the other used horns were going for, and if you are looking for the dents, you won't see them, just a shiny trumpet.
My daughter's band director knows Fred Powell, and has a custom horn made by him. She was trying to get us to contact Fred about his "Cameo" line of trumpets that he makes for students. I have no idea who he is, can't find anything about him online except on Facebook, and haven't found anything about this "Cameo" line. I think her teacher really wanted us to get a new horn from him. I told her to give me more information and to let me know where I can find one of these mysterious, wonderful horns that she is raving about. If I find one, I'll post about it in another thread.
Anyway, thanks again!
Mark |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
OldSchoolEuph
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 2440
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:39 am Post subject: |
|
|
Fred Powell is a designer who was at Conn about 20 years ago, possibly being instrumental in the Conn Vintage One trumpet, and is best known for his involvement with the Blessing-Blackburn arrangement to make the second generation of Sonare trumpets in Elkhart (prior to Blessing's almost brand new plant being closed, and the Blessing name sold to St. Louis Music to stencil on imports).
He currently hand builds custom trumpets for individual customers and provides repair, restoration and especially customization services under the Powell Trumpets banner. His website is currently, as it has been, just a placeholder with nothing but a contact email offered, suggesting a very limited, one-on-one custom shop business model.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JayKosta
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3298
Location: Endwell NY USA
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
About 'dents and dings' - unless they affect functioning of the valves or slides, OR they are large enough to change the cross-section area of the tubing by more than about 20% -- they don't make a noticeable difference. And most dents can be fixed by a local repair tech for a moderate charge - as long as the horn doesn't have to be disassembled to reach the dent.
Pretty much all used instruments have some sign of dents / dings - don't worry about it unless there is a proven problem. ALL of my horns have them !
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tuningbell
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 521
Location: Toronto, Canada
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:36 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | When we got home with the Bach Strad, my daughter emailed her band director about it and her director sort of freaked out. She told my daughter to open the slides, check the valves, look for dents, etc. (her director is also a trumpet player) |
Have the band director play it. If she/he notices any obvious issues get them addressed at Hornstash. Did her director freak out positively or negatively?? Some band directors particularly trumpeters have a bias towards sound and brand preference. Don’t put too much emphasis on it. If it plays well for her with great sound that’s the acid test!! I’d be excited my student found this horn but I’d recommend my own brass tech go over it just to be sure everything it right. Even if it cost $200 bucks for new felts, cork, spit valve spring or other things you are still in great shape on the horn.
I’m not asking what you ended up paying but am curious. Maybe she/he freaked out because the price was too low and she/he fears hidden damage. My advice is to have your own tech give the horn a full inspection. I can’t stress enough how much this is a really good idea. Also an appraisal and photos for insurance could be done by the shop if you plan on adding it to your homeowners policy for theft or mysterious disappearance. This will also silence the band director on this subject of if the horn is OK. I’m a skeptic and the shop that serviced it for the seller might have just cleaned it for sale and not checked it for actually being played seriously. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
trickg
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002
Posts: 5675
Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| lurchbird wrote: | | When I was in high school back in the early 80's, I stopped at a garage sale and saw an old drum for $10. I only had $8 in my pocket and they sold it to me. Turned out to be a Gene Krupa Radio King, single ply maple snare drum. My HS Jazz Band just happened to be going to the Slingerland factory on a tour (they were in Niles IL by this time), and I brought it along. They offered my $100 on the spot, despite the years of wear, including scratches and rim dents! |
WHAT!? You bought a Radio King for $8? WOW! Do you still have it? I did my first snare drum build with the idea of making it look like an old Radio King - I sourced the classic Slingerland style lugs and built it on a 10 ply Keller shell. As crazy as it might sounds, this snare is my main snare - it just has the right combination of crack, brightness, warmth and body, and it's not finicky about being dialed in like some snares are.
| lurchbird wrote: | | And speaking of dents... When we got home with the Bach Strad, my daughter emailed her band director about it and her director sort of freaked out. She told my daughter to open the slides, check the valves, look for dents, etc. (her director is also a trumpet player). While I'm not an expert, I think I had done my research enough, including directly contacting the store that had done the ultrasonic cleaning to review with them their clean bill of health that they had given the horn. They told me it was not in "Like New" condition, but they didn't mention the small dents. So at the behest of her director, my daughter and I examined it again, this time in good light, and I did see the small dents in the bell flare. My daughter was not phased by it at all, as she had already seen worse in some of the 30+ trumpets she had tried. And to her (and my) ears, the dents did not affect the playing at all. I still believe I got a great deal, based on what the other used horns were going for, and if you are looking for the dents, you won't see them, just a shiny trumpet. |
You can look into getting some of those small pings rubbed out, or you can leave them - it takes a substantial dent in a bell before it's going to be adverse to the horn. With that in mind, another place where dents can be really bad are in the leadpipe. If you had to look at it under the light to see them, there's nothing there that will have to be immediately addressed.
Let me know about that Radio King!
_________________
Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
deleted_user_687c31b
New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996
Posts: 0
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 1:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
| lurchbird wrote: | | When we got home with the Bach Strad, my daughter emailed her band director about it and her director sort of freaked out. She told my daughter to open the slides, check the valves, look for dents, etc. (her director is also a trumpet player). |
Understandable, as it's hard for her to judge the quality of the horn without having seen it, nor does she know all the things you've done to check your purchase. From what you've written, you've been thorough enough...you certainly didn't buy the first shiny trumpet that came along. And from what you've written about your daughter's skills, I think you can trust her judgment that she indeed picked a trumpet that's right for her. Technical issues, even the more severe ones, can often be fixed anyway.
| lurchbird wrote: | | While I'm not an expert, I think I had done my research enough, including directly contacting the store that had done the ultrasonic cleaning to review with them their clean bill of health that they had given the horn. They told me it was not in "Like New" condition, but they didn't mention the small dents. |
You got a second opinion from a party that had no stakes in the sale...that was a smart move. The fact that they called it 'not new' pretty much included the 'small dents', 'lacquer scratches' and other stuff that affect the looks, but not the playability. If there was stuff like red rot or big dents, they'd likely have used different words.
Last edited by deleted_user_687c31b on Tue Jan 19, 2021 12:55 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
camelbrass
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 21 Dec 2002
Posts: 1397
Location: Dubai, UAE
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 4:25 am Post subject: |
|
|
An early Elkhart silver plated Bach 43 in what looks to be good condition...she'll never need another trumpet and will never be out of place in a section. Great choice
Regards,
Trevor |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
lurchbird
Regular Member
Joined: 06 Jan 2021
Posts: 11
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 8:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
| camelbrass wrote: | An early Elkhart silver plated Bach 43 in what looks to be good condition...she'll never need another trumpet and will never be out of place in a section. Great choice
Regards,
Trevor |
Thanks Trevor!
| tptptp wrote: | | I think a used silver plate Bach Strad without major repairs, big dents, or much silver wear could be found for $1500-2000. |
I used this advice from Craig, as well as from others here in this forum and my own research, to estimate the pricing.
| Tuningbell wrote: | | I’m not asking what you ended up paying but am curious. Maybe [her band director] freaked out because the price was too low and she fears hidden damage. |
I paid $1,550 in cash. I wanted a little in my horn budget reserve in case I needed to take it in to have an adjustment made.
I emailed the band director back and discussed our quest, and she is now happy for us, and can't wait to see the horn. My daughter will be going back to school this week and actually playing in person for the first time this school year (with a player's mask and bell cover), and will show the trumpet to her teacher. The band director knows Fred Powell and really wanted to get one of his trumpets into my daughter's hands. I'm open to discussing with Fred Powell, but I believe it will be out of my budget at this time. Plus, I felt I had to act on this used horn before someone else snapped it up!
Thanks!
Mark
Last edited by lurchbird on Mon Jan 18, 2021 3:51 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tuningbell
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 521
Location: Toronto, Canada
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 8:57 am Post subject: |
|
|
You made a great deal!
About 10 years ago Fred Powell was associated with Sonore trumpets. These were very good horns that were a combination of several different industry experts. If I recall correctly James Becker was a play tester, Clifford Blackburn designed the lead pipes Lew Soloff was involved in the final design and prototyping and Fred Powell oversaw design and manufacturing. They also sold at a great price point. I think they were more an intermediate horn but some pros really liked them. The 800 was very similar to a Bach 37.
https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=94061&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
The horns were assembled in Elkhart, Indiana valve sections were either Bauerfind (European) or Carol (Asian) I also think some horns were made in Germany by B&S and tweaked in the USA by the Sonare workers. if I remember accurately, By all reports these were nice horns. Fred also designed and oversaw the Conn Vintage horns which early on were excellent but when he left like all Conn Selmer production cost savings were implemented and the design changes made the horns less desirable.
A Vintage Early Elkhart Bach Strad is a great instrument and If it played well for me I’d choose it over newer offerings just for the history alone.
Below is a repost of a letter from Fred Powell around the time her teacher is discussing with you. So I am not clear if she is talking about Fred’s horns today or back then. I have no idea what Fred is doing today. But I’m sure a horn from him if not a Blessing or Sonare is north of $3,000.
Subject: Open Letter from Fred Powell Feb 24, 2010
Like many other businesses, in recent months it has become crucial to consider maximizing efficiency & reducing unnecessary expenses for both Karl & myself. A more manageable location in Western Springs, IL resulted from the search, and the move to that location is actually happening this week.
During this same period, a significant business opportunity developed, related to "Powell Signature Trumpets" and a consulting relationship that I have enjoyed for almost 5 years prior. Following the recent acquisition of E.K. Blessing Musical Instruments by Verne Q. Powell Flutes of Maynard, MA, I was offered a senior management position within the new organization that would also involve the manufacture of "Powell Trumpets" in Elkhart. And, after much thoughtful negotiation, our formal association is set to begin on Monday, March 1st.
My responsibilities are to include product design, market development & quality control for all three brand names, E.K. Blessing, Sonare' Winds & Powell Trumpets. Other related, peripheral activities are planned, including my availability to various school & community organizations as a promotional artist, as well as my functioning as artist liaison for all of our brass product lines.
The decision to enter into a relationship with the new E.K. Blessing Corporation & Powell Flutes was based on several key factors, such as:
their desire for American manufacturing
their plans (already in full swing) to move current out-sourced products to Elkhart
their commitment to the local Elkhart economy & local feeder industries
their obvious commitment to quality, high-end musical products as evidenced by Powell Flutes
their understanding of & desire to listen to musicians
their specific plans for future development & growth
the opportunity to expand my own product line & to make it more widely available
the opportunity for associations & working relationships with quality names such as Cliff Blackburn, Jim Becker, Lew Soloff & many others
the seeming "perfect fit" of our respective brand names to immediately create a full range of high-end brass products
the chance to get back into brass instrument projects & designs other than only trumpet
the upcoming move to a new manufacturing facility capable of producing & housing these instruments, and also designed to provide excellent experience for musicians & associates
Our first "official" event together will be the National Trumpet Competition, where we are also sponsoring Powell Signature Trumpets guest artist Thomas Marriott. Please stop by to say hello & check out some of the new equipment & prototypes.
For those in the Chicago area, we will be maintaining a presence at Hammond Design in Western Springs, where you will be able (in time) to play test & purchase Powell Trumpets & even set specific appointment times when I can be there to meet with you. In addition to the various model configurations that will become available through local dealers, players who wish to do so will also be able to come to Elkhart by appointment & go through the same individualized, custom-fitting process that has long been my practice.
Anyone & everyone who has ongoing or open business with me personally, including TrumpeTech, Inc. or Powell Signature Trumpets, please be assured that any & all work will be completed as originally directed. And, while I realize that a few projects have been delayed during the course of these recent developments, please accept my apology & know that I am taking steps to complete these as quickly as reasonably possible.
Thanks to everyone. I'll provide full contact information early next week after completing the move. For now, feel free to email any questions to: PowellTrumpets@gmail.com And, my main phone number in Elkhart will be: 574. 293. 0833 after March 1, 2010.
Sincerely,
J. Fred Powell |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
OldSchoolEuph
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 2440
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 10:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
Sadly a few years later, Powell flutes was acquired by Buffet, which saw Blessing, a long-time stencil house in addition to building under its own name, as a rival to VMI and shuttered the plant, selling the Blessing name to St. Louis Music and ending the Sonare venture. Fred Powell appears to be independent once more.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
trickg
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002
Posts: 5675
Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 1:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The parts of the post you quoted attributed to me are actually quotes from lurchbird - not sure if you realized that.
_________________
Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tptptp
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Oct 2001
Posts: 1408
Location: Georgia
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 1:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Lurchbird, your daughter is lucky to have you for a father.
Keep telling her how good she sounds, how special she is, and that all things are possible for her.
_________________
Craig Mitchell |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Vin DiBona
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2003
Posts: 1473
Location: OHare area
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 2:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Lurchbird, if your daughter's band director has the initials C.H., she has a great teacher.
Fred, she, and I played in a section together some years back.
R. Tomasek |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cgaiii
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 1543
Location: Virginia USA
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 2:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| lurchbird wrote: | UPDATE: We bought the used Bach Strad 43.
My daughter immediately knew that this was her horn, and I made my cash offer, which was accepted. To our eyes, the horn looks "Barely Used". The seller said her dad played it in high school, and not really that much afterwards.
|
Just wonderful, may she enjoy it for many years to come. Good job Dad.
_________________
Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
