• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

Horn plays great sharp



 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Bryant Jordan
Veteran Member


Joined: 16 Aug 2015
Posts: 193
Location: Utah, USA

PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 1:13 pm    Post subject: Horn plays great sharp Reply with quote

Hi.

My Artisan plays fantastic, but especially when the tuning slide is pushed all the way in. Of course it’s way sharp and not possible to play like that, but it feels and sounds a little duller and is harder to play when the tuning slide is out (in tune).

Any ideas on what’s happening here?
_________________
Bach Artisan AB190S
Bach 229 25A C
ACB Flugelhorn (raw brass)
Mpcs: AR Resonance MC 40 Bronze, MLC Bronze, ACB 1.5CFX, Curry 1FL
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
LittleRusty
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 11396
Location: Santa Clara, Ca

PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does it sound duller on all notes, or just the ones where valves are used? I am not an expert, but it occurred to me that the length of the valve crooks might not be optimal.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Crazy Finn
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 27 Dec 2001
Posts: 7550
Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota

PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lol. It's a Bach.
_________________
LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dstpt
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 14 Dec 2005
Posts: 733

PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At least it plays great. Hahahaha!!!

No, really, I've heard of players using thicker grease on the tuning slide, which caused the horn to have more compression(?), or at least make a noticeable positive change in the blow, so it makes me wonder if something similar might be happening.

Or, it could be that you're naturally hearing center of pitch where it should be, and that you're "resting" on each pitch and thereby picking up more overtones.

Or it could be that this horn might be a good candidate to modify the bell to be tunable!
_________________
"There are only two perfect people in this world...you and me...and sometimes I wonder about you."

https://www.dropbox.com/s/bgmjh7vn82elsjs/BAC%203%2B1v%20flugel-2020-01.jpg?dl=0
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Crazy Finn
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 27 Dec 2001
Posts: 7550
Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota

PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Horn plays great sharp Reply with quote

Bryant Jordan wrote:
Hi.

My Artisan plays fantastic, but especially when the tuning slide is pushed all the way in. Of course it’s way sharp and not possible to play like that, but it feels and sounds a little duller and is harder to play when the tuning slide is out (in tune).

Any ideas on what’s happening here?

Honestly, most horns DO play better with the tuning slide in all the way. Usually, it's not in tune, then.

Ideally, it's fairly close and you can move the slide out about a 1/4 - 1/2 inch and it should be good. If it's a good horn, the difference in sound and playability will be negligible.

It's possible that you're playing on the high side of the pitch. It's possible that there are issues with the horn. Let's just say that I've played more than few Bachs that have had this problem. I haven't investigated further, because even without the pitch issues, I prefer other horns.

Maybe this is something that Osmun's blueprinting can help.
_________________
LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JayKosta
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 1350
Location: Endwell NY USA

PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There have been experiments using tubular inserts with the same ID & OD of the tuning slide legs to 'fill the gap' that results from pulling the tuning slide.
I don't know of anyone who recommends it as being an accepted positive tweak, but it might be something you could investigate.

My understanding is that the inserts can be easily removed if found to not be helpful. And there isn't any external change.
_________________
King Super 20 (S2 1048, HN White)
Bach 7
The 'next note' is the most important one.
Don't take a '20 minute mouthpiece' to a 1 hour session.
http://users.hancock.net/jkosta/2020_Dec_17_Snow_2_small.jpg
Big Snow 1 week before Christmas
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
LittleRusty
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 11396
Location: Santa Clara, Ca

PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
There have been experiments using tubular inserts with the same ID & OD of the tuning slide legs to 'fill the gap' that results from pulling the tuning slide.
I don't know of anyone who recommends it as being an accepted positive tweak, but it might be something you could investigate.

My understanding is that the inserts can be easily removed if found to not be helpful. And there isn't any external change.

Victor Burguess, username NiViBri, sells a set of these for Bach. Here is an old thread about a giveaway by Victor.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
lipshurt
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Feb 2008
Posts: 2364
Location: vista ca

PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any horn I play that needs to out past 1/2 inch I make tube inserts for. It does exactly what you would think. It makes it play like the slide is in farther. I usually leave 1/4 inch of room to come in when it’s cold. And I have for sure needed to come all the way in for cold outdoor gigs.
_________________
Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com
www.youtube.com/lipshurt
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
LittleRusty
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 11396
Location: Santa Clara, Ca

PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Horn plays great sharp Reply with quote

Crazy Finn wrote:
Honestly, most horns DO play better with the tuning slide in all the way. Usually, it's not in tune, then.

I always thought that horns are designed to play best when the slides pulled to be at A440.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Bryant Jordan
Veteran Member


Joined: 16 Aug 2015
Posts: 193
Location: Utah, USA

PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the help everyone.

I'll look at those inserts. And I do tend to play a little higher on the pitch (something I've been drilling in practice).

Like I said, it still plays GREAT, but there's more I can get out of it.

I'll try your suggestions and let you know what happens.

Thanks again.
_________________
Bach Artisan AB190S
Bach 229 25A C
ACB Flugelhorn (raw brass)
Mpcs: AR Resonance MC 40 Bronze, MLC Bronze, ACB 1.5CFX, Curry 1FL
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bryant Jordan
Veteran Member


Joined: 16 Aug 2015
Posts: 193
Location: Utah, USA

PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lipshurt wrote:
Any horn I play that needs to out past 1/2 inch I make tube inserts for. It does exactly what you would think. It makes it play like the slide is in farther. I usually leave 1/4 inch of room to come in when it’s cold. And I have for sure needed to come all the way in for cold outdoor gigs.


Any suggestions where I can find inserts for my Artisan?
_________________
Bach Artisan AB190S
Bach 229 25A C
ACB Flugelhorn (raw brass)
Mpcs: AR Resonance MC 40 Bronze, MLC Bronze, ACB 1.5CFX, Curry 1FL
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
trpt2
Veteran Member


Joined: 16 Jun 2003
Posts: 146
Location: Philadelphia

PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, inserts . I've always seemingly had to play with my slide further out than others..(I think it was 10 years in Montreal, where the pitch was A=442 and climbing..) years ago, Bob Malone looked at where my slide was, and basically said, how can you play this ? 😅.
He put inserts in, really just pieces of cut down tuning slide.
Made a huge difference. Worth a try !
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bryant Jordan
Veteran Member


Joined: 16 Aug 2015
Posts: 193
Location: Utah, USA

PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I sent a PM to Victor Burguess through TH.
_________________
Bach Artisan AB190S
Bach 229 25A C
ACB Flugelhorn (raw brass)
Mpcs: AR Resonance MC 40 Bronze, MLC Bronze, ACB 1.5CFX, Curry 1FL
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bryant Jordan
Veteran Member


Joined: 16 Aug 2015
Posts: 193
Location: Utah, USA

PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I don’t get a response, does anyone know who else makes or sells inserts?
_________________
Bach Artisan AB190S
Bach 229 25A C
ACB Flugelhorn (raw brass)
Mpcs: AR Resonance MC 40 Bronze, MLC Bronze, ACB 1.5CFX, Curry 1FL
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Goby
Veteran Member


Joined: 11 Jun 2017
Posts: 138

PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You could probably ask James Becker, MK Drawing, and Josh Landress
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bryant Jordan
Veteran Member


Joined: 16 Aug 2015
Posts: 193
Location: Utah, USA

PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks!

Victor replied to my message, and I talked to Jason Harrelson.

They both recommended MK Drawing.

I'll post an update soon.

Thanks all for the input.
_________________
Bach Artisan AB190S
Bach 229 25A C
ACB Flugelhorn (raw brass)
Mpcs: AR Resonance MC 40 Bronze, MLC Bronze, ACB 1.5CFX, Curry 1FL
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
LittleRusty
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 11396
Location: Santa Clara, Ca

PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bryant Jordan wrote:
Thanks!

Victor replied to my message, and I talked to Jason Harrelson.

They both recommended MK Drawing.

I'll post an update soon.

Thanks all for the input.

Great news they responded so quickly.

Please follow up with the things you try and how they work for you. Some of us get curious.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group