Affect of Mpc. of blow, sound, functionality of horn?

[improver]

I'm 63 years old and have been playing since I was 7 years old. Im convinced having a good mouthpiece is imperative for the performance of the horn and confidence? When I say a good Mpc. I'm not talking about brand or size necessarily, but by how seamless they are in their construction. I've tried 30 Bach 3c flugelhorn mouthpieces with my Couenon and Courtois 154R flugelhorn and even the best 2 of the 30 produce one which plays seamlessly in blow and sound. The other is close, but still the difference is big. Anyone else here that Mpc sensitive? Thx

[LittleRusty]

I don't understand what you are attempting to communicate using the term "seamless" nor how "seamless" translates into "blow and sound".

Can you give more details to help in understanding?

[improver]

A mouthpiece can be probitive to executing and articulating or producing an open sound, or it can make that process much easier given all other variables the same namely the player is efficient.

[LittleRusty]

I still am not sure I fully understand what you are asking, but look forward to seeing how the discussion develops as other's, who are wiser and more accomplished players, respond.

[Richard III]

[improver]

Ya it fascinates me how different each one is. Why? always looking for a better set up. Way different

[improver]

Really it sounds odd to try mouthpieces looking for the best set up. Not to me.

[improver]

Richard III " all this sounds odd" don't be an *******. If you can't grasp it or you don't like it then butt out. Nobody was asking for a question pundit.

[JayKosta]

Sure there can be 'mechanical differences' between different examples of the 'same mouthpiece' - slight machining dimensional difference, different metal batches, different silver plating, etc.
A really sensitive tester probably could notice the differences.

Another concern is the tester himself and the environment of the various tests. Even with consecutive tests in the same location, there could be physiological or psychological changes that affects the tester's perception of how the mouthpiece is working.

"time to pick-up on one, and let the other ones ride"
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.

[LittleRusty]

[Goby]

Do you have the proper shank size for those French flugels? Most "off the shelf" bach flugel pieces will have American/Standard shanks, but the French flugels might need a straight-taper mouthpiece in order to work properly. Flip Oakes has a video on YouTube about flugelhorn mouthpieces. I'll link it in this post.

Regarding mouthpiece-trumpet compatibility, some mouthpieces match well with some trumpets, and some don't get along. A Reeves mouthpiece with a Calicchio 1s/2 trumpet is an extremely popular setup for commercial players, for example. If you want to fine-tune and experiment with your mouthpieces, try out a few different brands, or a brand with a 2-piece system like AR Resonance. I've found a lot more success with shallow flugelhorn mouthpieces roughly one rim size smaller than my standard trumpet mouthpiece.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMrbIgqWIso

[royjohn]

Well, I am not being an *******, but this does also strike me a slightly atypical. It could be a great sensitivity to some variable, however, and there are players with a great deal more sensitivity than me...probably they are better players and probably improver is that.

I don't see the dimensions of all 30 mpcs (cup ID, cup shape, throat size, backbore) being so much different that only one or two would be acceptable and 28 not. So I'm betting it would be variations in the receiver gap. That would be relatively easy to check, and if the OP is willing to try 30 mpcs, I suspect he'd be willing to check the gap. If the gap isn't the issue, then it would be a pretty simple matter to fill the cups of mpcs with clay or plaster and compare their dimensions. The only other issue I can think of is the placebo effect and to test that, the OP might get someone to hand him mouthpieces while he's blindfolded for evaluation.

I think the answer lies somewhere here...another thing to check is the age of these various mpcs, as some folks do indicate that Bach mpcs from various eras are rather different. Again, another thing fairly easy to check with the various inscriptions on the mpcs.
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royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . .

[Dennis78]

I’ve not found any mouthpiece to be prohibitive to my playing. After a while I’ve adjusted to all that I’ve tried.

Have said all that I do have my favorite
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a few different ones

[Bflatman]

Well I am neither wise nor accomplished but I think I understand what the op may perhaps be describing.

Mouthpieces are complex devices, what with different throats backbores rim sizes rim shapes internal diameters bowl shapes bowl depths, mass, many variations exist.

What might be described as a seamless design is perhaps a design where all the different variables work well together and suit the playing style of the player. All elements work together "seamlessly". I like that concept.

Two mouthpieces that are other-wise the same except for a different throat size can play quite radically differently and one might lose its seamless quality. with a larger throat alone perhaps robbing the player of precision and endurance.

I used to find that mouthpieces were very variable in the effect they had on the tone. Increasingly now however I am finding far less difference between mouthpieces.

I own a dozen mouthpieces ranging from huge 1.25 to tiny 20 size and I dont care much now which mouthpiece I pick up and use. they have a different tonality that is true but I can play on anything with little acclimatisation and little difficulty.

Similarly I am finding little difference between instruments and I no longer have any daily player in either horn or piece.

I have no idea why this is and I am not in any way suggesting this to be due to any improvement on my part it is just where I am now and what I observe.

In many ways a horn and mouthpiece that together work seamlessly might yield higher quality playing than my less than seamless combination of gear might deliver.

In this I am not qualified to give an opinion.
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Olds Fullerton Special Trumpet
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Yamaha YCR 2330II Cornet
Selmer Student Trumpet
Bohland and Fuchs peashooter Trumpet
Boosey and Hawkes Regent Cornet
Lark M4045 Cornet

[royjohn]

I believe it was Diane Arbus, the photographer, who said that when she stood in front of a subject, she arranged herself, meaning that, using a twin lens reflex with a fixed focal length lens, she moved around and accepted the limitations of her equipment. Other photographers arrange the subject, the lighting the lens and everything else to their liking.

Similarly, there are people who use very different equipment and mpcs and just change their technique and accept the limitations of the equipment and their embouchure. Others want the equipment to serve them.

Diff'rnt strokes for diff'rnt folks, I guess. With cameras, I have some that have zoom lenses and lots of adjustments and some that are fixed focal length and rather restrictive in other ways. With brass instruments, I like to fine tune the mps setup and select particular instruments that appeal to me. I have to say, tho' that I've never auditioned 30 of the same labeled mpc...but then again, I'm a rather unskilled amateur...
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royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . .

[HERMOKIWI]

[evolution]

For me all instruments are different and all mouthpieces especially when vintage have (little) differences. New CNC-made mpcs are quite consistent.
For me it is necessary to find the perfect match of mouthpiece and horn for my way of playing.
Sometimes one may think that a mpc or a horn is bad. But often - after owning 50+ horns - it ist just necessary to find the right match to open up the qualities of a horn (or a mpc). The bad mpc for one player and/or one horn may be the perfect fit for another musician.
I have about 10 different mouthpieces that I like. And every of my 6 horns has another favourite. Some horns have two favourites for different playing styles. All mpcs and all horns function okay with each other. But with the perfect match it lights up every horn significantly.
My Committee-like horn loves its Courtois 1-1/2C. My Piranha works best with a Bach Megatone 1-1/2C. My Tayor Standard is a beast with a XO 3C.
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Enjoy music!

[zaferis]

It reads like you're touching on consistecy of manufacture, and miniscule variations from one mouthpiece to another.

Yes, there are a lot of us that "sensative" . For instance, I've found that Curry 3's work really well for me, been playing these for about 10 years now. In my collection of Curry 3C's, several, 3C standard shank x2, 3C BlackJack shank, 3C 2-piece design, 3C bach-like shank.. And as consitent as his pieces are, there is a noticable difference to me.

Up until the CNC machines started making mouthpieces, consistency from piece to piece was an issue with every manufacuter - drill bits wore, cutting dies changed, and measuring was more challenging.

Our chops are sensitive enough to notice the slightest difference. Mouthpiece design is measured on the level of thousandths of an inch.
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Adjunct Professor
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[shofarguy]

Flip Oakes and I were talking about this on day in his shop. He said that he'd witnessed two mouthpieces cut from one piece of rod stock on a CNC lathe at Kanstul. The first one cut smoothly, but the next one (same rod stock) chattered and squealed through the whole process. The point he was making is that even a rod of brass stock has variances along its length that will affect how the mouthpiece performs.
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Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

[cgaiii]

Actually, what the OP is pointing out is quite interesting. For him, one in 30 of the same mouthpiece hit the spot on his Flugelhorn. Perhaps the Bach 3C is not really his best mouthpiece (do not know for sure), but he hit a fluke that works for him. Personally I would have tried another mouthpiece before I hit 30, but I assume that there is something about the Bach 3C that the OP likes. His experimentation puts another interesting point on the graph for mouthpiece safaris, manufacturing inconsistency. We talk about it a lot in horns and it is notorious in older Bach mouthpieces. However, I know I find myself assuming that one model/size etc. mouthpiece from a certain manufacturer should be the same as another of the same from the same manufacturer. This gives food for thought.
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Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales