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C trumpets?


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dstpt
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eclipse C
Adams C1-XL
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is surprising that after the OP stated very specific requirements, so many Bach, Yamaha and Schilke S-series horns that do not match those requirements were none the less pushed. Come on, I happen to think Bach makes pretty much the bench-mark C too (though my personal favorite is the original Yamaha Chicago), but the OP is looking for a different feel and response characteristic.

We are all different, which is why there is such a diversity of horns out there.

The advice to look at horns like a Schilke C5, or others in that B-series derived set, is good advice. A 2-bell Burbank Benge C, if you could find one, might be another, though the Schilke will respond easier. I looked at some CarolBrass offerings, but they seem to all be designed to feel more like a Bach, and not of their upper tier lines. Of course there are boutique makers who can build to one's tastes, Taylor comes to mind for me, but that can be time consuming and pricey. Finally, there are so many options that I suspect I could configure a Bach that fits the OP's desires, but why try to make an Escalade into Carrera?

I encourage the OP to try the Schilke C__s, and to try some boutique makers, particularly any in the French tradition, and see what works. Horns in these categories are something one can resell for close to used cost, so maybe a safari can help both find the right match and help deal with covid boredom.
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Liberty Lips
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
I encourage the OP to try the Schilke C__s, and to try some boutique makers, particularly any in the French tradition, and see what works. Horns in these categories are something one can resell for close to used cost, so maybe a safari can help both find the right match and help deal with covid boredom.

Well, all the OP really specified was "nice open feel, round full sound, good build." That pretty much describes the Bach C, but since that's been eliminated, and the Schilke C series (a very good choice) was already mentioned by the OP, there is one possibility that hasn't been mentioned yet, which is a used French Selmer C trumpet. There are a couple of nice ones for sale on eBay at the moment. I think of Selmers as light and agile rather than full and round, but Maurice Andre certainly sounded incredible when he was playing a Selmer C. Perhaps they are a bit less "brilliant" than the Schilke C's, but so are the Bachs and Yamahas.

It really is a pity that Selmer stopped making brass instruments.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Liberty Lips wrote:
Well, all the OP really specified was "nice open feel, round full sound, good build." That pretty much describes the Bach C...

Some of us would put that as only 1 out of 3. Maybe 1 1/2.

For the record, I feel exactly the same about the 37 (that one is for sure 1 out of 3), so this isn't just a C trumpet thing for me.

Liberty Lips wrote:
It really is a pity that Selmer stopped making brass instruments.


On that, we agree 1000%.
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Winghorn
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see why some posters feel the need to continually put down a particular brand of trumpet.

Are those of us who like such a trumpet too dumb or too poor of players to know how bad our instrument is?

Most of us on this forum have no idea of the experience or playing ability of posters offering opinions.

So being a poster myself whose qualifications are unknown to most or all, my opinion is that Bach instruments are excellent, just like many of the most popular brands today.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Selmer is a good thought. The C700s are a nice rich tone, and easy blow (if not worn). Finding a Selmer Radial C would probably thrill the OP, but they are really rare.
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2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Winghorn wrote:
I don't see why some posters feel the need to continually put down a particular brand of trumpet.

Are those of us who like such a trumpet too dumb or too poor of players to know how bad our instrument is?

Most of us on this forum have no idea of the experience or playing ability of posters offering opinions.

So being a poster myself whose qualifications are unknown to most or all, my opinion is that Bach instruments are excellent, just like many of the most popular brands today.


We are blessed with many really excellent options in the trumpet world. The thing is, we are a very diverse set of physical beings, so what makes a horn so perfect for one of us, is what makes it so awful for another.

I don't want to get deleted for repeatedly mentioning hot-button words, but the reality is humans are very different one vs the next, and in each can be found great merit. I thank that which the moderators probably also don't want mentioned that we have so many different and great options in equipment that enable all of the artists among us to reach their potential.
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2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
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1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
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Winghorn
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I couldn't agree with you more, Rob.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Winghorn wrote:
I don't see why some posters feel the need to continually put down a particular brand of trumpet.

Are those of us who like such a trumpet too dumb or too poor of players to know how bad our instrument is?

Most of us on this forum have no idea of the experience or playing ability of posters offering opinions.

So being a poster myself whose qualifications are unknown to most or all, my opinion is that Bach instruments are excellent, just like many of the most popular brands today.

I guess I get tired when posters speak about certain trumpet brands as the be-all-end all and dismiss those who think otherwise as unwashed fools who simply lack the sophistication of a true connoisseur and professional. My hostility is probably a response to this. I'm probably most vehement about this in relation to C trumpets, which is due in part to having played many, many of them, and having bad experiences playing them for several years. My trumpet life got better when I stopped trying to change myself and my playing in order to "like" what everyone thought was the standard and best and accepted that maybe I just liked different things and that was more than Ok.

Despite some of things I wrote, I don't hate Bach instruments. They're fine. I don't love most of their trumpets, especially their C trumpets, and the ever popular 37 Bb, but it's fine that people like them, because they're not me and I'm not the one playing them. I even have a Bach cornet, which is a nice horn.

However, the OP explicitly said that they doesn't like Bachs - which I identify with. He also said he likes open, free blowing trumpets. What followed was several posts in people were confused by how one could like those qualities and not like Bach. Or, that Bach was the standard and he should just keep trying them - thus implying that the OP is basically wrong regarding his feelings about Bach. However, that made complete sense to me, as I feel the same way and feel that often - Bach trumpet do not exhibit those qualities to me. It's not at all a contradiction in my mind, it makes complete sense. So, it get's me a little riled up when I see that. If I was a bit harsh in my replies, I apologize.

There's another thread about someone whose daughter tried many trumpets and like a Bach 43. I didn't spend that thread telling them they were wrong about it, because they already said they found something that worked for them. That's great. They tried things and found something they liked. I guess I'm presuming that they tried non-Bach options, which I often encourage.

As a few of the posts above point out, this is a great time to be in the market for a trumpet. There are diverse options and numerous makers. It's easier than ever to find older, vintage horns by makers that aren't around anymore. Even professionals are using a much wider variety of models and makes than they were 2 decades ago. Why limit yourself? Try things, figure out what you like and go for it.
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Riojazz
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Far from experienced on a C, but I switched from a Bach to a large bore Shires and am much happier, especially with the intonation.
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Matt Finley
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Kanstul 1525 flugel, Shires Bb & C trumpets, Schilke XA1 cornet, Yamaha Eb, Yamaha F/G, Schilke P5-4 pic, Yamaha soprano sax, Powell flute. Chase Sanborn GR66MS.
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6pk
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamaha Chicago Gen 1, with the slightly shorter tuning slide, (that they all have after the first 6months)

It works, end of
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falado
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Carl, I too was never a Bach fan. My first pro horn was a Bach 37 that my trumpet prof picked out when I was a freshman in college. Once I became a better player I found it stuffy, especially above high C. I found out later my trumpet prof liked horns with lots of resistance. That’s the horn I had at the SOM when we were students there. I somehow managed to be able to play lead on that horn. I also found that issue with Bach horns in the military to be the same. After all, they get played and played, no valve alignment for years, and played by different players, etc.

Moving to now. I was given an early Bach Elkhart that needed a lot of help. I sent it to Jim Becker at Osmun for blueprinting and a valve rebuild. When I got it back I could not believe it was a Bach. I added a rounded tuning slide to the horn and wow, I could not believe how open the horn played. It had a nice even easy scale all the up to G above high C. I used it with a brass quintet with much success, but unfortunately that gig went away. I sold it to a player in a regional symphony and later scored another Bach with issues fairly cheap, $300.00, and of course there were reasons. Sent it to Jim with the same results. My conclusion was that there are good Bachs and some not so good. It depends how it leaves the factory, and I found that the blueprinting service the Osmun provides is well worth the money. I had a Schilke S22C trumpet for years and was never quite satisfied. I’m getting involved with a brass quintet soon and Jim one time recommend that if I ever found a Bach 239 25A to get it and send it to him for blueprinting. I found one last year for $1000.00. I sent it to him and I now have a wonderful open blowing C that definitely outplays the Schilke, gets the sound I want and will work great with the BQ. I sold the Schilke.
Dave
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Sarcastic Musician
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One I haven’t seen mentioned yet: Eclipse.

I had one for a short while (it wasn’t for me) that had 6 leadpipe inserts. This let you dial in the resistance/feel and sound to your preference. It also had rear bow tuning and an enormous bell.
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F.E. Olds Nut
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bach or Yamaha. They are the industry standards for a reason.

I love Schilkes, but if I needed a serious C trumpet for everyday use, I'd pick one of those two.
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AJCarter
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Winghorn wrote:
I don't see why some posters feel the need to continually put down a particular brand of trumpet.

Are those of us who like such a trumpet too dumb or too poor of players to know how bad our instrument is?

Most of us on this forum have no idea of the experience or playing ability of posters offering opinions.

So being a poster myself whose qualifications are unknown to most or all, my opinion is that Bach instruments are excellent, just like many of the most popular brands today.


Bach trumpets are famous for quality control issues and can be notoriously difficult to play (not all of them, but a majority are). If you're fighting the instrument to make it respond properly or be in tune then it won't sound right. Yamaha trumpets play easier, and Shires trumpets do as well.

I'm not saying folks who choose Bach horns are dumb or poor players. I think they either found a great one or are set in their ways and are unwilling to give anything else a chance. They should at least try Shires trumpets seeing as they are built with the American trumpet sound concept in mind. After testing many of their models I would choose and recommend them over Bach in a heartbeat.
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benlewis
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

benlewis wrote:
There is a Yamaha/Malone conversion in the Marketplace with a Malone MC2 pipe (not mine.) If I didn't already have 3 C's plus a rotary, I'd snap it up in a heartbeat. I have one like it, except with the MC1 pipe; I call it the "Flamethrower". The MC2 should blow even more freely. If I were in the market, I'd hop on it ASAP...

HTH

Ben


I just reviewed the ad I mentioned again and noticed that while it does have the Malone pipe and braces, it does not appear to be a "full" conversion.

This is not intended to say that it isn't a great horn; and the fact that Bob seems to have had his hands on the horn leads me to believe that is in fact the case. I just wanted to clarify that as I was comparing it to my horn, which has the full treatment; which, besides the lead pipe and bracing, includes annealing of the bell and third valve slide, extended first valve to bell ferrule with adjustable brace, and modification to the bottom of the valve bodies. Mine also has a spacer between the bottom cap and third valve.

Again, I'm sure this horn plays great. I just always want to be sure my posts are as accurate as I can make them, with my limited available knowledge...

HTH

Ben
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trpt4him
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AJCarter wrote:
Winghorn wrote:
I don't see why some posters feel the need to continually put down a particular brand of trumpet.

Are those of us who like such a trumpet too dumb or too poor of players to know how bad our instrument is?

Most of us on this forum have no idea of the experience or playing ability of posters offering opinions.

So being a poster myself whose qualifications are unknown to most or all, my opinion is that Bach instruments are excellent, just like many of the most popular brands today.


Bach trumpets are famous for quality control issues and can be notoriously difficult to play (not all of them, but a majority are). If you're fighting the instrument to make it respond properly or be in tune then it won't sound right. Yamaha trumpets play easier, and Shires trumpets do as well.

I'm not saying folks who choose Bach horns are dumb or poor players. I think they either found a great one or are set in their ways and are unwilling to give anything else a chance. They should at least try Shires trumpets seeing as they are built with the American trumpet sound concept in mind. After testing many of their models I would choose and recommend them over Bach in a heartbeat.


Of the many Bachs that I've played and owned, I'd say about half are at least good out of the box, and half need some work to them to make them competitive. I'd suggest that the OP needs to continue to consider Bach trumpets especially since used ones, especially older ones with a Corp bell, are probably the best bang for the buck in the used market. Perhaps you tried a 25H pipe which does have an odd blow. My 25A responds, plays, and sounds wonderful, and with Bachs you get the bonus that other players probably use them or at least own them and you end up with a good section blend.

Another good option is a used Edwards C, like a Gen 2, which can be had for a good price as well if you can find them.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trpt4him wrote:
Of the many Bachs that I've played and owned, I'd say about half are at least good out of the box


What is "good" for you can be "bad" for someone else. One of the key reasons so many people, people who are unique relative to one another in their style, tastes and physical situation, find Bachs work well for them is a certain amount of intentional variability.

But in this case, the OP is looking for a significantly different feel and, while I am sure I could configure a Bach that would fit the bill, why go to that much trouble when the OP already has a mindset of not Bach? No one knows better than the person playing the horn what works best for them.

Let's respect the OP and offer answers to the question asked, without accusing the OP of being wrong, or a time-proven maker of building junk.
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2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1927 Conn 22B NYS
1957 Holton Model 27 Stratodyne
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson British Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
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trpt4him
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
trpt4him wrote:
Of the many Bachs that I've played and owned, I'd say about half are at least good out of the box


What is "good" for you can be "bad" for someone else. One of the key reasons so many people, people who are unique relative to one another in their style, tastes and physical situation, find Bachs work well for them is a certain amount of intentional variability.

But in this case, the OP is looking for a significantly different feel and, while I am sure I could configure a Bach that would fit the bill, why go to that much trouble when the OP already has a mindset of not Bach? No one knows better than the person playing the horn what works best for them.

Let's respect the OP and offer answers to the question asked, without accusing the OP of being wrong, or a time-proven maker of building junk.


I don't think anyone is accusing the OP of being wrong at all. But they're asking for suggestions from more experienced people, therefore it seems that any and all experience is valid.

I just think that if Bach trumpets are so inconsistent (which they are), then it would be a logical fallacy to say that all Bachs don't fit the bill. Whether OP has tried one or two Bachs vs. 10 or more is not stated. If the former, I stand by my comment. If the latter, then sure, look elsewhere.
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Winghorn
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The OP may be asking for advice from more experienced people, but how can he know he is getting it? Being a member of Trumpet Herald obviously does not automatically make someone experienced or a decent player.

What are the qualifications of the posters giving advice on this forum? In most cases, no one knows. So how do you know whether to accept an opinion as authoritative?

Some posters are saying Bach instruments can be notoriously difficult to play or that only about half produced are any good. Say what? That is certainly not my experience or the experience of the many fine trumpet players with whom I have played over the years.

I think it is arrogant for someone to make blanket statements about the worth of a particular trumpet brand. Especially when that brand is played by more players worldwide than any other.

Well that's my opinion that's likewise given without foundation...

Steve
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