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C trumpets?


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deleted_user_687c31b
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It depends a little on your definition of 'experienced' I suppose. You could define it as 'veteran or professional player', or as 'someone who's had personal experiences buying C trumpets'. While blanket statements in general are dangerous, if several people have the same 'experience' with a particular brand or model, it could at least be used as a guide as to what to look out for. In case of Bach, the inconsistency is a persistent rumor and it would be prudent to use this information to at least try several models of the same type when testing horns. If anything, it might mean that the 2nd version of a horn you'd otherwise dismiss might actually be the one you buy.

And given that I have no experience whatsoever on this particular subject, I'll take your comment to heart and refrain from giving any advice.
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AJCarter
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have tried 229 and 239 bells with H, A and S pipes and a Blackburn 19, even going so far as to test out a 43C pipe and putting an MC1 taken from a 9445CH. I am not inexperienced when it comes to these instruments. Not liking a Bach because I or someone "probably tried an H pipe which does have an odd blow" is an incredibly condescending remark. While I'm sure it was well meaning and not intended that way, as Steve has said, many of us don't know anyone from Joe Blow on the street, but it certainly could have been worded better.

I'll say my last peace here on this sub-topic and then be done with that part: Some folks might be willing to put up with it and work their tail off to make it sound great. That's fine, and they sound great! Every professional I have ever studied with or worked with has stated Bachs are not easy to play and getting a good one out of the box on the first try without testing several others is harder than getting struck by lightening while winning the lottery.

OP wants a C that isn't a Bach and in 2021 there are other options that deserve to be considered. Quit suggesting horns he doesn't want when there are viable alternatives.
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Winghorn
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good points, hibidogrulez! ( I wish I knew peoples actual names!).
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Winghorn
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AJCarter wrote:
[....

OP wants a C that isn't a Bach and in 2021 there are other options that deserve to be considered. Quit suggesting horns he doesn't want when there are viable alternatives.


Agreed.
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trpt4him
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AJCarter wrote:
I have tried 229 and 239 bells with H, A and S pipes and a Blackburn 19, even going so far as to test out a 43C pipe and putting an MC1 taken from a 9445CH. I am not inexperienced when it comes to these instruments. Not liking a Bach because I or someone "probably tried an H pipe which does have an odd blow" is an incredibly condescending remark. While I'm sure it was well meaning and not intended that way, as Steve has said, many of us don't know anyone from Joe Blow on the street, but it certainly could have been worded better.

I'll say my last peace here on this sub-topic and then be done with that part: Some folks might be willing to put up with it and work their tail off to make it sound great. That's fine, and they sound great! Every professional I have ever studied with or worked with has stated Bachs are not easy to play and getting a good one out of the box on the first try without testing several others is harder than getting struck by lightening while winning the lottery.

OP wants a C that isn't a Bach and in 2021 there are other options that deserve to be considered. Quit suggesting horns he doesn't want when there are viable alternatives.


My apologies -- to clarify, the "you" was meant to the OP, not you you. I try not to assume anything beyond whatever question was in the original post. I agree, it would have been downright rude for me to suggest that YOU need to try something other than an H pipe.

I'm done, let's all go enjoy our horns!
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AJCarter
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trpt4him and Winghorn: I definitely wasn't trying to be an A hole. You guys have made great posts and points now or in the past and I certainly respect them and you for taking the time. I just wanted to say that.

Time to get back to work.
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Winghorn
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AJCarter-

Thanks for your comments! I don't think you have been an A hole in any way, shape or form and I continue to enjoy your posts on this forum!

Sincerely,

Steve
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trickg
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If someone handed me a pile of money to buy a horns with, the first two horns I'd get, especially if I wanted something to use in a classical setting:

Yamaha Chicago Bb
Yamaha Chicago C

I have not played the C version of this trumpet, but I have played the Bb, and the Bb is hands down a fantastic trumpet in how it plays and handles, but where it really seemed to shine was the sound. Hands down it was the best of everything we played that day and we played everything from Shires to Scodwell, and everything in between.

I can only imagine that the C version is equally as good.
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Letstalktrumpet
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A suggestion nobody has brought up is Warburton. I had an early Warb. C and loved it. Big sound, really free blowing.
A bit unconventional, but might be what you are looking for.
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dershem
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

falado wrote:
Hi Carl, I too was never a Bach fan. My first pro horn was a Bach 37 that my trumpet prof picked out when I was a freshman in college. Once I became a better player I found it stuffy, especially above high C. I found out later my trumpet prof liked horns with lots of resistance. That’s the horn I had at the SOM when we were students there. I somehow managed to be able to play lead on that horn. I also found that issue with Bach horns in the military to be the same. After all, they get played and played, no valve alignment for years, and played by different players, etc.

Moving to now. I was given an early Bach Elkhart that needed a lot of help. I sent it to Jim Becker at Osmun for blueprinting and a valve rebuild. When I got it back I could not believe it was a Bach. I added a rounded tuning slide to the horn and wow, I could not believe how open the horn played. It had a nice even easy scale all the up to G above high C. I used it with a brass quintet with much success, but unfortunately that gig went away. I sold it to a player in a regional symphony and later scored another Bach with issues fairly cheap, $300.00, and of course there were reasons. Sent it to Jim with the same results. My conclusion was that there are good Bachs and some not so good. It depends how it leaves the factory, and I found that the blueprinting service the Osmun provides is well worth the money. I had a Schilke S22C trumpet for years and was never quite satisfied. I’m getting involved with a brass quintet soon and Jim one time recommend that if I ever found a Bach 239 25A to get it and send it to him for blueprinting. I found one last year for $1000.00. I sent it to him and I now have a wonderful open blowing C that definitely outplays the Schilke, gets the sound I want and will work great with the BQ. I sold the Schilke.
Dave


Thanks, Dave. I appreciate your input, and remember the bach they put me on at SOM - it was possibly the worst bach I ever played on, but I do not by any means consider it average for bach horns.

Note - I am the OP. I've been playing for over 50 years, and playing professionally for over 40. "Just any opinion" is pretty well meaningless. I've played with Louie Bellson, Toshiko Akiyoshi, Tower of Power as well as the 2 local symphony orchestras - I'm not a kid or a patzer, so please don't just throw names out there.
Those who read my post without preconceptions will, instead of saying "just get a Bach!" look at the playing characteristics of the horns I said I play and work from there.
The C5 is all right. I've played a couple. But the Schilke 5 is too tight for me, which is why I play an X3 as a backup horn. A .460 bore is tight for the way I play, and I am most comfortable on a .464-.470 bore horn. (I double extensively on low brass, and am used to putting a lot of air through the horn).
Were this a normal year I'd wangle a pass to NAMM and try all of the C trumpets. But it isn't. I wish I had the opportunity to do that, but ... stuff happens. I'd probably gravitate to the Schilke CXL or CX4L, but with that not being an option, I was hoping someone had played a horn along those lines, be it a Yamaha or other brand (if I had a Genie, I'd ask for a Marcinkiewicz).
Thanks for the input.
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Winghorn
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dershem-

I meant no offense to anyone. I just think it is hard to rely on someone's opinion without knowing anything about them.

Thanks for letting us know about your trumpet playing experience- your profile listed your occupation as "clerical". That doesn't give too many clues about your trumpet experience.

By the way, I share your interest in redheads!

Steve
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nieuwguyski
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dershem wrote:
I'd probably gravitate to the Schilke CXL or CX4L, but with that not being an option, I was hoping someone had played a horn along those lines, be it a Yamaha or other brand (if I had a Genie, I'd ask for a Marcinkiewicz).


Is the current Schilke website inaccurate? I know the XL-bore C trumpets weren't listed in the catalog for many years, but the current website that I see once again shows the CX4, CX5 (what I've played for decades), and CX6 as currently available.
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AJCarter
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2021 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dershem wrote:
falado wrote:
Hi Carl, I too was never a Bach fan. My first pro horn was a Bach 37 that my trumpet prof picked out when I was a freshman in college. Once I became a better player I found it stuffy, especially above high C. I found out later my trumpet prof liked horns with lots of resistance. That’s the horn I had at the SOM when we were students there. I somehow managed to be able to play lead on that horn. I also found that issue with Bach horns in the military to be the same. After all, they get played and played, no valve alignment for years, and played by different players, etc.

Moving to now. I was given an early Bach Elkhart that needed a lot of help. I sent it to Jim Becker at Osmun for blueprinting and a valve rebuild. When I got it back I could not believe it was a Bach. I added a rounded tuning slide to the horn and wow, I could not believe how open the horn played. It had a nice even easy scale all the up to G above high C. I used it with a brass quintet with much success, but unfortunately that gig went away. I sold it to a player in a regional symphony and later scored another Bach with issues fairly cheap, $300.00, and of course there were reasons. Sent it to Jim with the same results. My conclusion was that there are good Bachs and some not so good. It depends how it leaves the factory, and I found that the blueprinting service the Osmun provides is well worth the money. I had a Schilke S22C trumpet for years and was never quite satisfied. I’m getting involved with a brass quintet soon and Jim one time recommend that if I ever found a Bach 239 25A to get it and send it to him for blueprinting. I found one last year for $1000.00. I sent it to him and I now have a wonderful open blowing C that definitely outplays the Schilke, gets the sound I want and will work great with the BQ. I sold the Schilke.
Dave


Thanks, Dave. I appreciate your input, and remember the bach they put me on at SOM - it was possibly the worst bach I ever played on, but I do not by any means consider it average for bach horns.

Note - I am the OP. I've been playing for over 50 years, and playing professionally for over 40. "Just any opinion" is pretty well meaningless. I've played with Louie Bellson, Toshiko Akiyoshi, Tower of Power as well as the 2 local symphony orchestras - I'm not a kid or a patzer, so please don't just throw names out there.
Those who read my post without preconceptions will, instead of saying "just get a Bach!" look at the playing characteristics of the horns I said I play and work from there.
The C5 is all right. I've played a couple. But the Schilke 5 is too tight for me, which is why I play an X3 as a backup horn. A .460 bore is tight for the way I play, and I am most comfortable on a .464-.470 bore horn. (I double extensively on low brass, and am used to putting a lot of air through the horn).
Were this a normal year I'd wangle a pass to NAMM and try all of the C trumpets. But it isn't. I wish I had the opportunity to do that, but ... stuff happens. I'd probably gravitate to the Schilke CXL or CX4L, but with that not being an option, I was hoping someone had played a horn along those lines, be it a Yamaha or other brand (if I had a Genie, I'd ask for a Marcinkiewicz).
Thanks for the input.


Other than a a small group of makers, I'm not sure any stock C trumpet will blow the same as an X3 or Miyashiro. Admittedly, I do not have any experience with Marc. horns.

However, should any of those horns not quite fit your bill, it is possible to get a C trumpet and then open up the blow with a big pipe taper, venturi, fully rounded tuning slide crook, reverse pipe, and mouthpiece throat/backbore combo.
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Ed Kennedy
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2021 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would avail myself of local resources. San Diego = Horntrader and Flip Oaks. Have you checked them out?
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Andy Del
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2021 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like the OP, I do not like Bach’s. Of the 56 trumpets hanging about the studio, not a single one is a Bach.

For a good free blowing C, the are many options but quite a few are no longer available new. These are just the ones I am familiar with.

Used.
Kanstul made French Besson - the one with interchangeable leadpipes.
Kanstul 1510, but put a rounded tuning slide on!
Selmer radial 99.
Schagerl piston C. They had one on a peg in the showroom in 2013. It was pretty amazing. (Looked suspiciously like option 1 above)

New.
Thein ‘MH’ 4 valve. Usually comes in Eb, but you can get C slides, leadpipe and bell.

There are other horns out these, but these do not quit. The main difference I find to a bog standard Bach is you don’t get bogged down in them, they just keep going and going. My quintet colleague has a Bach like this, it was rebuilt by a Swiss tech - essentially a blue printing service - and feels the same. Just doesn’t stop.

Sorry for answering the OP’s question! 😜

Cheers

Andy
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dershem
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TH can be a very useful forum.

Another member contacted me privately, and has a Marcinkiewicz C with a .464 bore and other very desirable characteristics for sale, so we are in negotiations.

I am not entirely opposed to Bach instruments - my 36G trombone has been my standby horn for a long time, but the 16 and 50 are just terrible. The same applied to the 37 Strad trumpet (I had one for a while). De gustibus.

Thanks for all of the good input.
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Andy Del
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dershem wrote:
I am not entirely opposed to Bach instruments - my 36G trombone has been my standby horn for a long time, but the 16 and 50 are just terrible.


Yeah, we all have a Bach trombone in the basement... just not trumpets!
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dershem
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ed Kennedy wrote:
I would avail myself of local resources. San Diego = Horntrader and Flip Oaks. Have you checked them out?


Both are old and dear friends. Both have very specific things that they like in horns that do not necessarily match how I play.
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Marcinkiewicz Mic G. trumpet, Custom Marcinkiewicz mpc. (Among others)
Marcinkiewicz Rembrandt flugel, Benge 8Z cornet, King 2B, Bach 36, Benge 190, Getzen 3062... many more. All Marc. mouthpieces.
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dershem
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy Del wrote:
dershem wrote:
I am not entirely opposed to Bach instruments - my 36G trombone has been my standby horn for a long time, but the 16 and 50 are just terrible.


Yeah, we all have a Bach trombone in the basement... just not trumpets!


King 2B, Bach 36G, Benge 190, Getzen 3062, and the Reynolds valve bone Bob Brookmeyer gave me... plus a few others.
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BKA! Mic Gillette was my mentor and friend.
Marcinkiewicz Mic G. trumpet, Custom Marcinkiewicz mpc. (Among others)
Marcinkiewicz Rembrandt flugel, Benge 8Z cornet, King 2B, Bach 36, Benge 190, Getzen 3062... many more. All Marc. mouthpieces.
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