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How long to build up embouchure?


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Saxondale
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 11:47 pm    Post subject: How long to build up embouchure? Reply with quote

Hi everyone 🤠
I started playing sax about 6 months ago and progressed well, then about 3 months ago decided I would try a trumpet as well.
I have really been struggling with embouchure strength and the middle of my top lip always swells up.
I then tried a trombone thinking that the larger mouthpiece would help which it has to a certain extent but I get other problems like double buzzing and weak airy sound in some registers.
On both instruments I just can't seem to build any strength and it almost feels like there is no muscle in the centre of my top lip.
Is it possible that my anatomy will prevent me from ever progressing or do I need to be more patient?
Obviously a teacher would be great but the current situation prevents this.
Maybe I should just stick to sax?
Thanks
Dale
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deleted_user_687c31b
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's just my opinion, but 3 months seems way to short to draw any meaningful conclusion as to whether you're physically able to play an instrument or not. Learning to play any musical instrument takes time, especially if you don't focus on a single one but pick up multiple at the same time. As for brass instruments in particular, a big part of your sound is due to how you use your lips and that's certainly not something you can train in a few weeks.
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Dayton
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 1:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Is it possible that my anatomy will prevent me from ever progressing or do I need to be more patient?


Welcome to trumpet playing!

There is no way for any of us to know without seeing/hearing you, but it seems doubtful that you won't be able to progress. You definitely need to be patient. Part of that means being satisfied with very gradual improvement -- it will take years to be "good." And part of that means practicing sensibly: Knowing what to practice, how to practice it, and for how long to practice. You may be overpracticing, which is counterproductive.

Quote:
Obviously a teacher would be great but the current situation prevents this.


If you mean COVID -- versus finances or work schedule -- then consider online lessons. They work pretty well, and you really need someone to help you figure out your embouchure, whether you are using a mouthpiece that is well-suited for you, what/how/when to practice, etc. You'll make much faster progress, and suffer far fewer frustrations, if you are working with a teacher.

Good luck!
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:06 am    Post subject: Re: How long to build up embouchure? Reply with quote

Saxondale wrote:
... then about 3 months ago decided I would try a trumpet as well.
I have really been struggling with embouchure strength and the middle of my top lip always swells up.
...

-----------------------------------------
I can't determine how you learned (or were taught) brass embouchure technique - but it is all too easy to not be doing it in the best way. Primary trouble is using mouthpiece pressure (instead of lip tension) to control pitch.

edit January 22: I think that instead of using the term 'lip tension', the concept should be 'lip adjustment' for pitch control. Yes, lip tension is part of the 'adjustment', but having too much attention placed on 'tension' is not good. I will be updating my webpage (below) with more ideas about 'lip adjustment'.

My webpage here -
http://users.hancock.net/jkosta/Embouchure_Basic_Concepts.htm
describes some of the basics. I suggest you take a few minutes (it's not very long) to read it, and think about how your techniques compares.
People here are always ready to provide suggestions.
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Last edited by JayKosta on Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
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hose
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fifty-some years ago I switched from woodwinds to trumpet. I found the muscles developed in a woodwind embouchure are quite different from brass. Switching between the two, which I seldom did, was a problem. Trumpet to clarinet was OK. Going back to trumpet immediately after a stint on clarinet was a real problem. You may be confusing your facial muscles, thereby hindering progress. Additionally, three months is not long enough for most of us to develop any degree of "useable" endurance regardless of the instrument.
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Noodly
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am also making that switch. I have seen exercises specifically for those muscles. Like gripping a pencil between your lips so that is parallel to the floor. There is even a small device called a PETE or "Personal Embouchure Training Device" that is supposed to help. Here is a review of the various techniques. It takes time either way.
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Saxondale
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks everyone for the response, I will follow the advice.
With the sax I made fairly rapid and linear progress but with the trumpet it's been quite different. I will try and get some online lessons and go from there. I wish my brain would let me concentrate on just one thing 😆.
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trickg
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hibidogrulez wrote:
It's just my opinion, but 3 months seems way to short to draw any meaningful conclusion as to whether you're physically able to play an instrument or not. Learning to play any musical instrument takes time, especially if you don't focus on a single one but pick up multiple at the same time. As for brass instruments in particular, a big part of your sound is due to how you use your lips and that's certainly not something you can train in a few weeks.

^^ This.

One of the things that I've always been amazed by when it comes to the adult beginner, or even the comeback player who has been off of the horn for decades, is that adults don't seem to understand that there is no way to circumvent the amount of time it takes to truly develop playing a musical instrument. They think that because they have the work ethic and self-discipline of an adult that they can speed along the process provided they have the correct knowledge at their fingertips.

Even I fell prey to that when I started learning to be a drummer in my early 30s. I figured that since I was already a pro-level player on one instrument, that I'd be drumming well in no time, just as soon as I worked out some coordination things.

Nope.

The truth was, it was a full 5 years of really working on it before I got to a point where I wouldn't cringe listening back to recordings that I played on, and even then, it wasn't every week - I still had weeks where it just wasn't good. I was somewhere around year 8 before my drumming took on the level of polish and consistency I'd been striving toward, and I'm still working on it - you never "get there" - you're always on the journey.

To the OP, Dale - don't be discouraged, but understand that you need to be patient - it's literally going to take years of work before your trumpet chops are to a point where you'll sound strong and polished, and that's provided you don't have some other embouchure hurdles to overcome. There's no trick, no tidbit of knowledge, and the PETE isn't going to do it either - there's no shortcut and there's no magic pill - it's going to take work, and it's going to take a while. That is the reality of it.
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hose
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trickg: Great post! Yours is also my story of my beginning trumpet life. I also was accomplished (on woodwinds). How hard could this three valve thing be? What an awakening after a few years. And 45 years later I'm a decent trpt and still learning.
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Dkjcliff
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All great responses. I completely agree that three months is nothing, particularly if you're a newcomer to the trumpet. It takes time to build strength for sure. But what is equally if not more important is developing muscle memory. Playing the trumpet well requires thousands of tiny muscle micro-adjustments for note, volume, tone, pitch, articulation, etc. It's not something we realize we're developing as we practice because you can't consciously control all of these tiny adjustments. It just requires training your muscles through playing with good technique and smart practice. And there's absolutely not shortcut to this. Which is why, though I think tools that help develop strength like the pencil exercise and PETE have their uses, they can also cause problems, especially in new players who haven't yet developed the muscle memory. They can train your muscles to flex in a way that is optimal for holding a pencil but not for playing a trumpet.

Don't give up. Use your air and don't give into the crutch of increasing mouthpiece pressure to keep playing past when your embouchure needs a break. Don't be afraid to practice in short 15 minute sessions for some time (if your schedule permits). Good luck!
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wilder
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 4:20 pm    Post subject: Re: How long to build up embouchure? Reply with quote

Saxondale wrote:
Hi everyone 🤠
I started playing sax about 6 months ago and progressed well, then about 3 months ago decided I would try a trumpet as well.
I have really been struggling with embouchure strength and the middle of my top lip always swells up.
I then tried a trombone thinking that the larger mouthpiece would help which it has to a certain extent but I get other problems like double buzzing and weak airy sound in some registers.
On both instruments I just can't seem to build any strength and it almost feels like there is no muscle in the centre of my top lip.
Is it possible that my anatomy will prevent me from ever progressing or do I need to be more patient?
Obviously a teacher would be great but the current situation prevents this.
Maybe I should just stick to sax?
Thanks
Dale
stick to sax. jw
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

about 10,000 hours
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trickg
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Billy B wrote:
about 10,000 hours

On the surface that seems like the cliche response, but that's really about the size of it - it takes SO many hours of just grinding it out in every way:

In the practice room
In rehearsals
At gigs
Time spent critically listening
etc.
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Bflatman
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 3:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read that it takes 10 years or 10,000 hours to become good so I decided to cheat and cut that time down massively and it worked.

It only took me 5 years.

My method was to walk all the way to the city practicing as I walked and spend 3 hours busking while there and then I walked all the way home and practiced as I walked home.

That was 5 hours practice a day plus 3 hours playing a day with a few breaks of course.

I got paid while busking and that paid for the whole deal so I didnt need a job. And I only got paid if I played well. So I had to quickly learn how to play well and sound great.

That added up to 8 hours times 365 times 5 equals 14,600 hours I was shocked to be invited to join several bands and a major orchestra after only 3000 hours.

Right from the get go I made 2 decisions they turned out to be the 2 most important decisions I could have made.

1 Never use pressure, I use as little mouthpiece pressure as possible, you cant play for 8 hours if you mash your lips.

2 Be driven by the beauty of the tone, let the tone guide you.

I consider the sax to be a wonderful instrument you have my respect for playing both.

Your lip issue might be a pressure issue but without seeing you I am just guessing. It is worth seeing a teacher to find out.

Those 14,600 hours were well spent and the time passed so swiftly and most of those hours generated applause and it has been worth every single minute.

You reap what you sow, we sow beauty and reap adulation
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GeorgeB
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 3:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, Jay, thanks for posting that link and your writings on the embouchure. It reminded me of things I knew but may have forgotten over the years.

I liked your post to, Patrick. So much truth there.

George
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Wilktone
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hose wrote:
I found the muscles developed in a woodwind embouchure are quite different from brass.


Yes. You'll want to be aware that more specifically the way the player uses the mouth corners are different between woodwinds and brass. On a woodwind like sax or clarinet the corners come inward and will sort of "wrap the mouthpiece like a rubber band." On brass, like trumpet and trombone, you'll probably do better by locking the mouth corners more or less in place where they are at rest rather than pushing them in towards the mouthpiece.

Beyond that, it's hard to help you without more specifics. Those include things that we'd need to see to judge, as well as knowing how and what you're practicing.

Dave
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The lip swelling and the emphasis on strength lead me to believe the OP is on the wrong track. When starting on the instrument there should be no reason for excess mouthpiece pressure or any particular amount of lip strength. All that is required is a decent setup and gentle coordination to play for the first year or so.

A competent private teacher could help you get started on the right path. The DIY approach is often an exercise in frustration.
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royjohn
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cheiden wrote:

Quote:
The lip swelling and the emphasis on strength lead me to believe the OP is on the wrong track. When starting on the instrument there should be no reason for excess mouthpiece pressure or any particular amount of lip strength.


And I agree with this. The OP saying he's getting lip swelling on the top lip was telltale...if you don't push too hard, I wouldn't see any reason to develop swelling. The story is told of Ghitalla doing a workshop and inviting a person off the street to try playing. Supposedly by teaching him a little roll-in Ghitalla was able to get the guy playing up to high C, but he tired quickly.

There is a right way and a wrong way to play...if you find the right way to place your embouchure, notes should come out fairly easily, even if you tire quickly because of your inexperience and lack of muscle tone.

Getting a teacher is a great idea...we are lucky to have Skype in this era...if I didn't progress fairly well with a teacher on a steady basis, I would get someone else. The teaching world is full of people who don't really know the basics and they supplement their teaching with nostrums about how hard it is to play and how long it takes. I like the Reinhardt approach and found a few lessons turned on the lights, whereas other approaches just didn't.

The one suggestion I have is to try lip buzzing. You can't use mpc pressure that way and you can learn to roll in the lips and press them together that way. Learn simple tunes and slides up and down and you should be getting the idea...then gently introduce the mpc onto the buzzing lips and you'll get the idea of how playing should feel. You can also place the mpc in different places on the buzzing lips and that should lead you to where the horn should be on the lips...instant correct mpc placement! Do the same thing with the complete horn and try not to introduce a lot of extra pressure and you should get a good idea of how playing should feel.

I'm not suggesting that practice isn't necessary, just that endless practice with no progress tells you that you are doing something wrong.
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Colini
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi folks, this is my first post after reading article over the past 3 years.
I am a comeback player - 40 year gap.
After lots of research and many hours of playing - about 2 hours a day - I can confirm that it does take many years to built a good sound and reasonable range.
I read an interesting article from a band director that it takes about 4 years to be able to play comfortably above the stave. I though at the time that that seemed crazy but 3 year in I can see where he was coming from. Each semitone up is a major step and owning it takes a long time.
So, replying to the original post - 3 months is far too short a time to draw any conclusions. Wait for at least a couple of years.
Getting a good teacher is the first step......
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deleted_user_687c31b
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2021 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Colini wrote:
Hi folks, this is my first post after reading article over the past 3 years.
I am a comeback player - 40 year gap.
After lots of research and many hours of playing - about 2 hours a day - I can confirm that it does take many years to built a good sound and reasonable range.
I read an interesting article from a band director that it takes about 4 years to be able to play comfortably above the stave. I though at the time that that seemed crazy but 3 year in I can see where he was coming from. Each semitone up is a major step and owning it takes a long time.
So, replying to the original post - 3 months is far too short a time to draw any conclusions. Wait for at least a couple of years.
Getting a good teacher is the first step......


Nice one! It took me 25 years...
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