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A most instructive embouchure & high range video.


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Lionel
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2021 12:25 am    Post subject: A most instructive embouchure & high range video. Reply with quote

This truly is the most instructive video on embouchure and high notes that I know of. It's finally on Youtube. I try to watch it myself at least once a month and have directed my students to view it regularly too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkpiO9ThrxQ&feature=emb_logo

This is purely a talk given by Dr William Moriarty back in 2005. Is his only video actually on the ''Roy Stevens Tribute Page''. Yet there are numerous other instructive videos done by Roy Roman. OMG you should hear Roman blow! In his band performances (sorry, not shown) he's a lot like Maynard was from his younger days. It was unfortunate to learn that Roy Roman has recently retired from playing. This I heard from a conversation with Dr. Moriarty a year ago. I was fortunate enough to gain his phone number through a respected contact. Hey, to my mind Moriarty is a living ''Trumpet God''. At least in terms of instruction.

Here follows the page where Bill's video comes from. See: http://www.roystevens.org/?page_id=12

His is found by scrolling all the way down. You ought to watch the remainder of the videos done by Roy Roman too. Good luck and ask me for my thoughts if you feel like it. Let us hope that this generates some discussion back and forth here.

Just as a side note, I began the total conversion to the described embouchure method about thirteen months ago, and let me tell you, the high notes are REALLY coming in. I've never played high notes so easily before. Sad when you think that it took me well over fifty years to ''find the key''. I pray that you'll avoid the long struggle that I've gone through.

Cheers!
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daniel76309
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for posting this! I watched all the videos, and have been trying the recommended exercises for a few days. It is too soon to say too much about it but it really seems to be making a difference. Doing the minimal pressure squeaking of high notes really works the orbicularis oris muscles. I can really feel the burn after just a minute or so, so have been trying to do this for a short time multiple times during the day. I am a "competent amateur" euphonium player, trying to also play flugelhorn. I don't need a double high C, but a solid and reliable high C above the staff would be nice.
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Roy Roman videos are excellent explanations of the principles of high range. They are very instructive not only regarding technique but also regarding the concept that a strong high register is a function of the uninterrupted airstream applied to the correct positioning of the embouchure (which includes jaw position, tooth position (gap between the upper and lower teeth) muscular position and relative lip position) and does not require super human muscle strength. Yes, there is muscularity involved but nothing even close to what many players perceive is necessary.

What is not explained in the videos is the specific movement of the relative lip positioning to effectuate the changing pitch (although the general principles of the foundational setting and the muscles involved are identified and explained). In all fairness, it would be extremely difficult to explain the specifics of the movements because the movements are very tiny and there is a knack and feel to getting it correct that can take a long time to perfect through training and coordinating the muscles to produce the desired result. The central point, however is clear: Correct movement does not cut off or compromise the air stream while incorrect movement does cut off or compromise the air stream.

No doubt there are some players that simply can't do it the way the video describes because their physiology is inconsistent with the set up being described. However, I suspect that most players can form the foundational setting described.

If you're serious about high range development it will benefit you to watch the Roy Roman videos and think about the concepts he explains and demonstrates.
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Rapier232
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting and makes more sense than the Tim Morrison video. He says the aperture should remain the same, just increase the air speed to go higher and open the aperture to play louder. That doesn’t make sense to me.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rapier232 wrote:
Interesting and makes more sense than the Tim Morrison video. He says the aperture should remain the same, just increase the air speed to go higher and open the aperture to play louder. That doesn’t make sense to me.


Rapier232,

For the benefit of the readers of this TH forum, please post a link to this video.
I am wondering if you were referring to James Morrison or Tim Morrison.
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 4:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BChamberlain wrote:
Rapier232 wrote:
Interesting and makes more sense than the Tim Morrison video. He says the aperture should remain the same, just increase the air speed to go higher and open the aperture to play louder. That doesn’t make sense to me.


Rapier232,

For the benefit of the readers of this TH forum, please post a link to this video.
I am wondering if you were referring to James Morrison or Tim Morrison.


He's referring to James Morrison. Here's the link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujrTDbnvDpU&t=6s

James Morrison says that to play higher you keep the lips in the same position and increase the speed of the air passing through the lips. He likens this to turning up the supply tap on a water hose. His analogy is that the way you increase the speed of the air is to increase the amount of air you put through your lips over any given amount of time. So, his concept is that you can play any note with a single completely constant lip position and all you have to do is increase or decrease the rate of airflow depending on whether you want to go higher or lower.

It doesn't actually work that way but James Morrison is a great player and I have no doubt that he means well. Either he doesn't actually understand what happens or, if what he says is literally true for him, then he has an other-worldly miracle embouchure that defies the laws of physics.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HERMOKIWI wrote:

James Morrison says that to play higher you keep the lips in the same position and increase the speed of the air passing through the lips. ...

--------------------------------
For anyone - how do you get a feeling of increased the air speed WITHOUT making or feeling any lip change? Try it without a mpc, just blow through your lips.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BChamberlain wrote:
Rapier232 wrote:
Interesting and makes more sense than the Tim Morrison video. He says the aperture should remain the same, just increase the air speed to go higher and open the aperture to play louder. That doesn’t make sense to me.


Rapier232,

For the benefit of the readers of this TH forum, please post a link to this video.
I am wondering if you were referring to James Morrison or Tim Morrison.


Oops James Morrison. I thought it didn’t look right when I typed it.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2021 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HERMOKIWI wrote:


He's referring to James Morrison. Here's the link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujrTDbnvDpU&t=6s

James Morrison says that to play higher you keep the lips in the same position and increase the speed of the air passing through the lips.


What I get from this is that Morrison isn't making conscious adjustments to the lips - he's not trying to close up the aperture for high notes or open it for low notes. He's using the air to control things. The aperture is going to change, of course, but playing like this the aperture is responding to the flow of air, rather than being the conscious control point. I've heard similar advice from other great player - let the aperture form in response to the airstream. There will be changes in muscle tone in the lips as well, but they're a patterned response, not a conscious manipulation, and the player may not actively feel them.
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steve0930
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello chaps

Hermokiwi wrote
Quote:
The Roy Roman videos are excellent explanations of the principles of high range. They are very instructive not only regarding technique but also regarding the concept that a strong high register is a function of the uninterrupted airstream applied to the correct positioning of the embouchure (which includes jaw position, tooth position (gap between the upper and lower teeth) muscular position and relative lip position)


Thanks for the time Hermokiwi you (and many others) on this forum dedicate to helping others. Quick question - after watching the videos I then focused on Opening the teeth gap - seemed to work well - (I watched a you tube video a coupe of years ago . i think it was Charlie Porter - who said he was working on closing the teeth gap - so this was a departure for me) So my question is do you see any difference between the front and back teeth in terms of gap? Thanks to Jeff Smiley's Balanced Embouchure which has been great for me my lips have chosen a much more closed set up (though it feels open) so today (could be different tomorrow!) I am in "close the lips open the teeth " way of thinking which sounds complicated but seems to be working c and d above the staff (thanks John Mohan for recommending Charles Colin Advanced Lip flexibility studies on this forum) are now coming out easily and nice resonance which would have been unthinkable 8 months ago.

thanks again and stay safe steve in helsinki.
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steve0930 wrote:
So my question is do you see any difference between the front and back teeth in terms of gap?


My upper and lower teeth are parallel, at least when I'm playing, so the gap in front is the same as the gap in back.

The general philosophy of what Roy Roman talks about is similar to this philosophy about sports: "In order to score you first have to be in position to score."

In order to produce an easy high range your embouchure first has to be in a position consistent with producing an easy high range. That's the whole point of the Roy Roman videos. It's all about maintaining the airflow, (2) directing the airflow to the right place and (3) positioning the lips so that they can easily vibrate. These factors all interrelate.

If the tooth gap is too wide the airflow is too undirected and the lips are in the wrong position to curl easily and effectively (they have too much room). If the tooth gap is too narrow the airflow is compromised and the lips are in the wrong position to curl easily and effectively (they don't have enough room). If the jaw position is incorrect the lips are in the wrong position to curl easily and effectively (they are not in an effective alignment).

When everything lines up correctly and you have the muscle coordination and strength to place the lips in the correct position and maintain that position the high register comes out quite easily. The most difficult part of this is developing the "feel" of when the lips are in the correct position so you can automatically go to that position. The Roy Roman videos stress the fact that the correct position always maintains the airflow while the wrong position always compromises the airflow.

It works, at least for me, exactly how Roy Roman describes it in the videos and my results are very similar to what you see in the videos.
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm always hesitant to criticize great players. Simply because I know how hard they work even with the superior natural ability that they possess. Heck even if you have a Double C during your first month of playing the horn it still takes a helluva lot of work to polish and develop one's technique.

Having stated that? I'm also certain that most of the powerful high note trumpet players can only really offer you the inspiration to learn to excel such as they've done. As they can not teach what they don't understand. And if they never struggled? Then they simply haven't a clue as to what you & I went through. Also, the concept of ''faster air'' is old school and not based in science.

Me? I'm about fifteen months into starting the Stevens System*. This is long enough to really observe some fantastic development. However it's not quite long enough to display professional results. Except in isolated instances. And this is true of any method you may attempt. I don't care what system that you employ. If you're only in your second year on it you're not gonna play like Doc Severinsen. However, I also believe that the principles found in Stevens-Costello will produce the quickest improvement for anyone who gives it a sincere try. Granted that some cats will need to modify the system as I've needed to do.

But just to give the gallery a clue as to my progress? Tonight I started warming up and about one minute into it I performed a G major arpeggio ALL THE WAY UP TO G OVER DOUBLE C!!! While this isn't quite the Triple C as promised in Stevens-Costello? Heck, it's pretty damned close. And no doubt but as my new embouchure develops and gells the Triple C and higher will arrive. Also, if I never played a note higher than what I'm capable of presently? It wouldn't bother me in the slightest. In fact, I've never felt happier. .


*Have made some significant changes in what Roy Stevens described so I'd say that what I'm doing is a combination of Stevens-Costello and my own ideas.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi again

Hermokiwi - thanks for your reply - this helped a lot
Quote:
If the tooth gap is too wide the airflow is too undirected
I was in danger of thinking "as wide a tooth gap as possible is the goal" which on reflection would have taken me back to my unbalanced / unfocused embouchure (preBE) set up of a year ago.

Your reply made a lot of sense and as you suggested I need to focus on remembering the feel when high is easy - to continue your sports analogy "get into the zone" as opposed to work harder or over analyze.

Lionel - in life I rarely meet people with higher levels of enthusiasm & energy than myself but something tells me in you I might have met my match. Every time I put down the horn I transfer some rubber coloured counter balls to a crystal whisky glass. (empty, thankfully, at the start of the day) A "red" is the prize when I punch the air and say "YES!" (I can play the trumpet!) after a good session. I think if you came to stay we would quickly run out of red counters.. and maybe whisky come to that..

cheers and stay safe Steve
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HERMOKIWI wrote:

My upper and lower teeth are parallel, at least when I'm playing, so the gap in front is the same as the gap in back.

The general philosophy of what Roy Roman talks about is similar to this philosophy about sports: "In order to score you first have to be in position to score."

In order to produce an easy high range your embouchure first has to be in a position consistent with producing an easy high range.


I suspect the gap between the teeth in the front is the critical factor. How much gap there is in the back is going to depend on your jaw/tooth structure and how the jaw hinges. When my jaw is closed, my front teeth overlap (top teeth in front), but some of my back molars are not touching. I can't do anything about that relative relationship, but I can control the alignment and gap in the front teeth - the back is going to be what it is (a fair bit wider).

This idea that there is an alignment of the jaw/teeth/lips that allows the embouchure to function efficiently throughout a wide range is really important, and I think that everyone who keeps bumping into range limitations should explore this. In my 50+ years of playing, I spent most of those years struggling because I was playing with sub-optimal alignment. Trumpet players who have, by nature, embouchures that are well aligned to start with probably have no clue about the challenges some of us face.

In my case, my lower jaw naturally recedes quite a bit, and also moves to one side, and I have irregular lower teeth - they don't form a nice even row. On the top, the teeth are pretty straight across, but angle forward just a bit (bottom edge of the tooth is slightly forward of where the tooth meets the gum). Most of my playing life has been on some variant of a downstream embouchure that worked well up to a point and then just closed off.

After taking in the Stevens-Costello embouchure alignment information, my trumpet playing changed overnight, an the inherent limitations of the way I had been playing, including "hard" range limits and uneven response and tone throughout range, vanished. It is liberating to be able to play an octave above what I considered the limit of my range before, keeping the chops in the same position and pressurizing the air a bit (much less effort than I used to use to NOT get results). So much of the advice about playing I've heard over the years that didn't work before works now - because of getting the alignment of the vibrating system right. Wish I'd figured this out when I was 16.
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2021 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steve0930 wrote:
Hi again

Hermokiwi - thanks for your reply - this helped a lot
Quote:
If the tooth gap is too wide the airflow is too undirected
I was in danger of thinking "as wide a tooth gap as possible is the goal" which on reflection would have taken me back to my unbalanced / unfocused embouchure (preBE) set up of a year ago.

Your reply made a lot of sense and as you suggested I need to focus on remembering the feel when high is easy - to continue your sports analogy "get into the zone" as opposed to work harder or over analyze.

Lionel - in life I rarely meet people with higher levels of enthusiasm & energy than myself but something tells me in you I might have met my match. Every time I put down the horn I transfer some rubber coloured counter balls to a crystal whisky glass. (empty, thankfully, at the start of the day) A "red" is the prize when I punch the air and say "YES!" (I can play the trumpet!) after a good session. I think if you came to stay we would quickly run out of red counters.. and maybe whisky come to that..

cheers and stay safe Steve
That's funny. A good post.

Herein lies an example of the inherent problem teachers of trumpet often have: The lack of enthusiasm among their students.

Presently I'm teaching a young, 31 y/old man the Stevens System, and he's improving at a reasonable rate. However, he isn't as inspired to study the Stevens System as I am or was. I guess that one can't always expect their students to want to practice a couple of hours daily. Nor study the book often. This being the one written by Roy Stevens.

However when I look back at my own life and see how hard I struggled with my chops? That and the many decades of having far less range than I wanted? Well it makes me want to scream the following at this young man,

''HEY! Don't you know that back when I was young, I'd have given my right arm to have a teacher (like me today) walk me through the Stevens System? So that I could have learned to blow G/Double C at age thirty instead of age nearly sixty-six today''?

Well? Better late than never. Yes, I can play a Double C at forte volume with just the horn resting on the palm of my hand. But still, I feel like yelling at him,

''Hey, Don't you care''?

And maybe he doesn't. Maybe he isn't really into lead playing, but he is improving. He can play a Double C and a little higher usually. I helped him set for this on his very first day on the Stevens System! Then meanwhile I'm learning how to teach him this kind of ''avant-guarde'' approach. The Stevens-Costello method breaks conventional wisdom. C/W tells us to ''Start Low''. Beginning in the lower register. And this will work fine for 1% of the most seriously interested young trumpet players. The rest however will fail. We either put the Double C on his horn at the beginning or we'll usually doom him to a career of mediocrity and embouchure problems for the rest of his life.

Regardless, I must remain patient. My student is learning! He does play Double C. He can ''sit'' on a High F or G for a considerable length of time. And even if he doesn't have the desire to become a real lead player? At least with the superior method of putting his chops together he won't likely ever strain his embouchure. Not lose teeth due to arm pressure. Such as I once did.

So I haven't raised my voice. Granted that I'm human and want him to succeed. But I learned that old adage about ''leading a horse to water'' a long time ago. And it never helps to yell at anyone. So I haven't.
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steve0930
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Lionel
Motivating post from you Sir and 5 minutes after reading it I bought
Embouchure Self-Analysis The Stevens-Costello Embouchure Technique on amazon. This is only the 4th book I have bought after The Arban, Trumpeting by Nature Pocius, and Jeff Smiley's Balanced Embouchure (BE) If this book gives me 10% of what BE continues to give I will be well happy. At 57years i am still so very young as trumpet player (1566 days) so I for one very motivated for any tips from seasoned pros like yourself.. keep them coming cheers steve
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lionel!
I think that you are right on the spot! Grit, true grit is the significant variable!How come some of us stay at home whilst some of us sail beyond the horizon, at many times not knowing why and where (like old Columbus, he sailed out not knowing where he would end up or what to find, arrived at a place he did not know where it was and sailed back not knowing where he had been). But he sailed!
Some of us practice 10000 hours! But why? Well, who am I to know?
I´ve practiced quite a lot throughout life(and was helped a lot when I finally took lessons)striving towards, yes what? And, will I know if I have arrived? How to define the goal? Look - how about sounding like Jim Wilt (Mr Clean)? Being able to sing through your horn without any apparent limitations? Tempting! But why?
Life and trumpet playing are projects. They should never come to en end. Or?? Practicing every day in spite of Corona? Yes! See you at the end of the tunnel!
Better stop before I drown myself in Quantum physics (making it possible to be at several places/goals at the same time).
However keep on walking....these horns are made for playing!
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lionel wrote:
...
Presently I'm teaching a young, 31 y/old man the Stevens System, and he's improving at a reasonable rate. However, he isn't as inspired to study the Stevens System as I am or was. ...

------------------------------
What are his goals, and what does he WANT to learn?
Perhaps ask him to bring some of his 'problem pieces' to a session to give a better view of what he seeks. If he plays with any groups, ask if there is anything that is holding him back in that setting.

It could also be that the Stevens method is perplexing to him - perhaps explain the aspects in more general terms.
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
Lionel wrote:
...
Presently I'm teaching a young, 31 y/old man the Stevens System, and he's improving at a reasonable rate. However, he isn't as inspired to study the Stevens System as I am or was. ...

------------------------------
What are his goals, and what does he WANT to learn?
Perhaps ask him to bring some of his 'problem pieces' to a session to give a better view of what he seeks. If he plays with any groups, ask if there is anything that is holding him back in that setting.

It could also be that the Stevens method is perplexing to him - perhaps explain the aspects in more general terms.


He had a very good lesson this week. All the more reason why I'm glad to be a more patient person than I once was.

One of the numerous fringe benefits of the Stevens System is that, once it starts to gain traction? It tends to make the student want to practice and do more. My young man is a good improviser. He told his Dad (a good friend of mine) that he wanted to study lead trumpet with me. It's been my experience in recent years that as one's lead playing improves, so does his improvisation. And vice-versa. At least this has been my experience.

What is holding him back is the same thing that holds back some 98 to 99% of us: Inability to play the complete range of the instrument, This is a condition not found (at least to the degree that we trumpets usually find it so) for any other instrumentalist. There are no Tenor Sax players with range problems.

Or, when was the last time you heard a violinist complain about his ''lack of range''? I'll answer that, Never lol... Heck even lower brass instrumentalists certainly don't display the range difficulties to anywhere near the extent that trumpet players do. Granted that there aren't tons of amateur trombonists who play the upper end, as well as say Tommy Dorsey did, but a lot of pros do. Plus most advanced trombonists can blow lead pretty well. The same, however, is not true on the trumpet. We have cut-off points. Roy Stevens explains this, although Dr. Moriarty expands upon this concept in more detail. Bill explains in the video that our range problems are due in large part to the incomplete direction and instruction on embouchure positioning and usage when we initially begin playing. I recall just being told nothing more than to

''Blow a raspberry and then put lots of air behind it''.

Some poor kids are told even less than this! Conversely the Stevens System always begins the trumpet player with a detailed explanation of proper embouchure function. Then he's started in the extreme upper register first. This isn't done because we expect the kid to turn into Lin Biviano in two weeks. Instead, the directive to PLAY THE EXTREME UPPER TONES FIRST is because as soon as these tones start emanating it is conclusive proof that the kid has formed his chops correctly.

Why not start with the low tones first and then convert them later on into higher tones?

This is the conventional or ''Evolutionary Approach'' and it works well for everybody EXCEPT we trumpet players. My explanation for why so few practicioners of the Evolutionary method fail is because an embouchure formed in the lower register initially will only rarely be able to squeak a G/High C or higher. Whereas when we learn the physics of proper embouchure design and then learn to play Double Cs and higher with finesse and at light volume?

Well, this assures us that we're on the right path. It is much easier to learn the lower register on a high note setting than to convert a weak, flabby set of chops into a screamer pair. Heck? We ALL know this. Is just common sense. Thanks everyone.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HERMOKIWI wrote:
BChamberlain wrote:
Rapier232 wrote:
Interesting and makes more sense than the Tim Morrison video. He says the aperture should remain the same, just increase the air speed to go higher and open the aperture to play louder. That doesn’t make sense to me.


Rapier232,

For the benefit of the readers of this TH forum, please post a link to this video.
I am wondering if you were referring to James Morrison or Tim Morrison.


He's referring to James Morrison. Here's the link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujrTDbnvDpU&t=6s

James Morrison says that to play higher you keep the lips in the same position and increase the speed of the air passing through the lips. He likens this to turning up the supply tap on a water hose. His analogy is that the way you increase the speed of the air is to increase the amount of air you put through your lips over any given amount of time. So, his concept is that you can play any note with a single completely constant lip position and all you have to do is increase or decrease the rate of airflow depending on whether you want to go higher or lower.

It doesn't actually work that way but James Morrison is a great player and I have no doubt that he means well. Either he doesn't actually understand what happens or, if what he says is literally true for him, then he has an other-worldly miracle embouchure that defies the laws of physics.
Just to add to that, I studied with John Ware for a couple of years. He told me that section players made the best teachers because they tended to be overachievers who had to figure out how to overcome multiple problems and make the most of their modest talent while 1st chair players are usually very gifted "born to play trumpet" people that never really had to figure out what to do or how to do it because it just came naturally to them. There was a forum on here awhile back about how to tongue. I suggested to Jim Wilt to join in because his tonguing is amazing and he is at the top of his profession. He replied that he did not know how he was doing it. jw
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