The real differences between cornet and trumpet

[Proteus]

Just found this really interesting article by Ivan Hunter (Jaeger Brass). Surprising, myth-busting, and definitely worth a read.

https://www.jaegerbrass.com/Blo/Entries/2019/9/difference-between-cornet-and-trumpet.html
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[JWG]

The myth of "conical cornet" and "cylindrical trumpet" got busted over a decade ago, perhaps 2 decades ago.

Someone did a rather good survey collecting bore data on hundreds of trumpet and cornet models.

Conclusion of that survey, trumpets tended to have more conical tubing due to their longer bells than cornets. Most manufacturers did not bother with the ultra expensive manufacturing of a conical lead pipe for cornets; instead, cornet manufacturers used cylindrical brass tubing for all the tubing up to and including the valve block.

Like Jaeger Brass concludes, the deep-V mouthpiece and double-wrap of the cornet account for its greater dampening of higher frequencies than single-wrap, shallow-mouthpiece trumpets.

Curved tubing has a big effect: to imagine it, draw a straight line tube and draw a circular tube, then draw low, medium, and high pitch sound waves in each. The high pitch sine waves in the circular tube get distorted as they hit the walls of the tube more often. The lowest frequency sound waves touch the walls of the tube far less often than high frequency sound waves and suffer little distortion.
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[zaferis]

Well, some incorrect information in this, a lack of historical information, and a large lack of data (only compared 2 instruments)..

Then missing a huge factor or the lead pipe diameter (bore size) at the mouthpiece receiver. Most cornets start at a much smaller size.
My understanding is that, over the years, cornets have gotten more cylindrical, and trumpets have become more conical-both moving toward the middle.

I'd call this a "cute" comparison of two instruments, but largely incomplete as a study of Cornet vs. Trumpet.
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[Didymus]

Trumpet Schmumpet— Some Facts and Observations on the Differences Between Trumpets and Cornets

My opinion is that modern trumpets & modern cornets are the same instrument. At one time they were different, and then their evolution converged to create the hybrid instrument we play today. The distinctions of the 19th century no longer hold today.

Having opined such, I still respect the rules imposed on british brass band participants. They have to use instruments shaped like traditional cornets. They have no choice.

I also know plenty of great players who sincerely feel that they need an instrument in the shape of a trumpet in order to play parts which favor a louder or brighter style.

Robb Stewart has forgotten more about the history and design of brass instruments than I shall ever learn. At the same time, I'm not comfortable telling more experienced trumpet players that the entire cornet-trumpet debate depends on obsolete distinctions and a slight amount of dogma.
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[lipshurt]

The reason cornets start smaller is that the mouthpiece shank is shorter. That is typically about .750 to one inch shorter.
The inside taper of the backbore is about .070 per inch. That means that adding that inch onto the leadpipe would make it be .070 smaller on the small end. And that is right about where they are. Ball park numbers are, leadpipe-wise a cornet leadpipe and a trumpet leadpipe are not much different. It’s mainly where in the continuum you draw the line and the end of the shank.

These numbers are general numbers and there is variation of course from model to model.
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[Bflatman]

I was approached when i played peashooter trumpet and invited to play in a British Brass Band among the cornet section.

So I turned up with my peashooter and blended. I used a cornet style deep mouthpiece and a cornet style embouchure.

No problems there

Much later I set out to prove a trumpet can sound like a cornet so I took a BBB style shepherds crook cornet fitted with a trad BBB mouthpiece,

For comparison I took an olds special trumpet in nickel plate - a bright trumpet so I had a tough job of it. I like challenges

I put an ancient deep vee cornet mouthpiece in the trumpet with a converter.

I used the same cornet embouchure on both. In blind testing audience members could not tell the two apart except for one man, He was a musician and he said they sounded almost identical I agreed.

A trumpet can sound like a cornet It is down to the embouchure the mouthpiece and the tonal concept of the player.

I play on a range of cornets and trumpets and sound much the same on them all.

What is the real difference between trumpet and cornet not enough to even care.
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[loweredsixth]

[deleted_user_687c31b]

[Shawnino]

[delano]

Yes, it's possible to get something close to a trumpetsound out of a cornet and the other way around. It's even possible to get a trumpet sound out of a flügel and with the TF mouthpieces some flügel sound out of a trumpet. And I suppose that Joe Zawinul is able to get quite a trumpet sound out of his synthesizer.
So? Why are things like that important to prove only that with some money and pain you can diminish the differences? I think it much more fruitful to investigate the possibilities of making diffences with horns.
Back to the topic: a cornet and a trumpet are NOT the same instruments (though there are some cornets that are built like a trumpet and are very close).
The difference may not be caused by the amount of conical taper but more by the way the conical taper is applied. IMO the very long conical leadpipe of the cornet, the different wrap, the mouthpiece and mouthpiece shank together with in average the bigger bore and bigger bells of the cornet are responsible for the difference in sound and feeling. In particular the leadpipe is a very important factor in the playing and sound charasteristics of a horn. And yes I know that there has been a lot of experimenting with the shape and the construction of cornets and we have of course the long and the short cornet, but still.
BTW even if you treat a cornet as a trumpet with mouthpiece choice and style of playing, there will always be that typical cornet aspect in the sound.
That is my own experience but listen to Warren Vaché, Thad Jones, even Nat Adderley. I admit, Ruby Braff is difficult but he often played the trumpet on records.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqWeVNh73zI&ab_channel=jazzka

edit: I forgot, I really don't understand why someone should put a trumpet receiver on an Olds Super cornet. To use his (sorry: their) trumpet mouthpiece? Waste of the cornet and a waste of the possibilities to try and experiment with the cornet mouthpieces. (I know that there are some pro players who did the same but they had a very good reason for that).
edit 2: old horns are often heavy so old cornets are often heavy, modern ones not per sé.

[deleted_user_687c31b]

[delano]

Some videos need obviously a 'don't-do-this-at-home warning.
But for the real thing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0sbe_oB3qg&t=18s&ab_channel=TrentAustin

[deleted_user_687c31b]

So I can safely assume you think the receiver is a critical part of the cornet then?

[delano]

Honestly spoken: maybe yes, maybe no. I don’t know but the mouthpiece itself is a crucial part of a cornet, there is a reason specialised cornet mouthpieces exist and so there is a function for the cornet receiver. On the other side, the old Olds receiver is indeed not a nice thing. I own an old Dutch Verreijt cornet that is in fact a Begium Van Engelen cornet with such a receiver. I play it with a Yamaha 14F flügel mp (large taper) which fits reasonable well.
But obtaining a mp with the old Olds shank is not THAT difficult.

[Dale Proctor]

The difference between a “cornetty” cornet and a trumpet isn’t a matter of the amount of conical vs cylindrical tubing, but the rate of taper of the conical parts themselves.
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[shofarguy]

One aspect is where along the length of the instrument the valve section is placed. Another is how the instrument is wrapped. As stated above, the mouthpiece shank and accompanying smaller beginning diameter of the lead pipe are a factor. The bell taper and flare are also obvious factors in how the horn sounds.

I think the resultant differences are subtle and cumulative. A traditional trumpet wants to be played with more force than a cornet.
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There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

[deleted_user_687c31b]

[Bflatman]

I actually do agree with delano there is no reason to make a huge effort to make a trumpet sound like a cornet. We have cornets for that.

Let them sound the way they naturally sound. My reason was to see how close I could get.

Cornets should sound like cornets trumpets like trumpets and flugels like flugels.

I do believe they are far more similar than many think however.

I see trumpet embouchure as more relaxed and trumpet more firm.

Thats just my approach
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Boosey and Hawkes Regent Cornet
Lark M4045 Cornet

[cheiden]

My somewhat cynical take is that there's something ineffable about the sound of a cornet. Enough that even many actual cornets are said not to sound like real cornets. And any deviation from a pretty narrow combination of horn construction and mouthpiece breaks the spell. And with particular emphasis on the mouthpiece, that's the last thing I'd be inclined to take liberties with.
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