New to brasswind, question on open valve notes

[LennyLTrump]

Exactly 3 weeks ago I received my new Bb trumpet. No prior experience in brass instruments and I’ve always been curious about how sounds are made and what those buttons and controls are for. I play piano & alto sax (Eb) so I’m not new to music.

It has been very interesting.

A while back, I had a conversation with a former trumpet player who said he had to quit trumpet when he lost two of his front teeth playing football. That led me to believe that significant amount of pressure against the lips is needed. However, I found out that very light pressure, barely enough to seal, is more effective.

Unlike sax where middle notes are easier to start with, the lowest notes are what I could initially produce on trumpet.

The instrument appears to have harmonics based on certain notes, but I encountered an apparent anomaly. In ascending order of notes that I’ve learned to play (long & slow), in Bb notation:
Middle C (concert Bb) and 6 half steps below, then,
G and 6 half steps below, then,
C and 4 half steps below, then,
E and 3 half steps below, then,
G above staff, but not consistent yet.

The E does not seem to fit the pattern. The pitch wants to slot at E before going up to G. Is that normal for trumpet or should I try to bypass that E and practice jumping from C to G?

I know, I know. I really have to get a teacher. Since this activity produces a significant amount of spray, I’ll start lessons after I’m vaccinated.

[Beyond16]

[deleted_user_687c31b]

[JayKosta]

[cheiden]

Welcome to the adventure.

First off, kudos for exploring the harmonic series of your own volition. I think that really helps to understand the man-machine interface. I also was self-taught and engineered both the harmonic series and the chromatic scale.

Regarding pressure, though less is generally better players often use moderate to high mouthpiece pressure. While it's technically possible to play with negligible mouthpiece pressure doing so is rarely practical.

There's nothing wrong with starting with low notes. I'd argue it's more common than not. But there is a risk in starting with an embouchure so loose that it can only produce low notes. A teacher can often work on establishing a setup (how the lips are held prior to applying the mouthpiece) that results in an embouchure that can cover a sensible span of notes.
_________________
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Charles J Heiden/So Cal
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[JoseLindE4]

[JayKosta]

[JoseLindE4]

I interpreted "6 half-steps" as the next 6 valve combinations leading down to F#, since it mentions "6 half-steps" from C (C down to F# below the staff) and G (G down to C# below the staff), then "four half-steps" from 3rd space C (C down to second-line G#), then "3 half-steps" from 4th-space E (E down to third-space C#). In other words, the comments about half-steps are simply referencing the various fingerings to lower the pitch chromatically down to the next lower open note. All normal, non-pedal notes.

[JayKosta]

[LennyLTrump]

Thanks for the responses. I was very concerned about that E. Spent a couple of days wondering if I had a lemon. Also typical at this stage of the learning process, "Am I doing something wrong or is the instrument to blame?" I was looking for leaks because in saxophone, a leaking pad can cause unexpected results at different areas of the scale.

You guys caught a nuance that I wasn't aware of. When I stated "Middle C" I was referring to a piano keyboard (not trumpet "Middle C" which I didn't know about). So when I mistakenly mentioned "Middle C" I was referring to the lowest open valve note that I could play on the trumpet (I'm incapable of pedal tone/note), equivalent to the Bb on piano that's a whole step below the piano's "Middle C."

The first 3 long notes of the open valve sequence C - G - C - E - G (seldom hit that last one) always reminds me of Richard Strauss' . . . Zarathustra . . . popularized in that movie 2001: A Space Odyssey. I think it should be D - A - D on my Bb trumpet; C - G - C sounds similar due to relative pitch.

I've also been practicing the alternate fingerings but I can't detect tonal differences between 1 & 2 vs. 3. Ergonomically, isn't 1 button (3) faster and more accurate than two (1 & 2)?

Yesterday, I was doing fine. This morning, I sounded like a dying elephant and couldn't even play the low C. Are off days expected? Can I blame the change in humidity?

[JayKosta]

I (and many others) refer to the C below the treble staff as 'middle C' - as in piano notation. Some people (often beginners with no previous musical training) choose to call that 'trumpet note' as 'low C', and the C in the staff as 'trumpet middle C' - this can cause much confusion ...
Also the notes above the staff are usually just called by their names, and perhaps as 'top line F', 'G above the staff'. The C above the staff is called 'high C', then an octave higher is 'double C'.

The 'international note naming conventions' (e.g. C4, c', etc.) are sometimes used, but not often in the TH forums.
See - https://music.stackexchange.com/questions/69372/how-do-you-refer-to-a-note-that-is-more-than-one-octave-above-or-below-middle-c

You do need some type of guide about embouchure technique to avoid learning bad habits. It could be from a good teacher, youtube, online text, etc.
If you have already chosen a source of information, please let us know so we can tune our comments to align with it.

The 'standard trumpet note fingerings' are based on their producing generally in-tune pitches, and efficient finger dexterity.
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.

[huntman10]

Regarding front teeth presence vs mouthpiece pressure, in my experience the front teeth are actually important in holding the lips in against the muscle tension within the lips. I suppose someone might be able to correctly "buzz" but it would be a difficult relearning process if at all possible.
_________________
huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc.

[JayKosta]

[LennyLTrump]

I oiled my valves again this morning. In my Subject line, I stated "open valve notes" where I meant all 3 buttons are up/unpressed. However, pressing a button actually opens the valve to more tubing; hence the lower note. What's the correct terminology?

[JayKosta]

Having ALL the valves UP is called 'open' (because the tubing to the 3 separate valve slides is 'closed' - not in use - when the valve pistons are in the UP position). With the valves all UP (open) the horn behaves as a Bb bugle.

Use of the 'alternate fingerings' is used to avoid awkward fingering.
And if the alternate gives a more desirable sound/pitch.
e.g. I play a piece written with 3 flats and it often uses notes in the staff of Eb Ab and C . I use valves 23 for the C because the pitch match is better (the finger movement is not an issue). When I play it with the C 'open' the pitch is OK except in one spot where the C leads to the D above it - and that spot sounds much better to me with the C played 23.

If you notice an interval that doesn't sound good, then try alternate fingerings to see if that helps. But you are correct that 'lipping' the note into pitch must be done - usually not much lipping is needed, but the player must produce the correct pitch by controlled physical adjustment and mental 'imaging' of the desired sound. The physical adjustment becomes an unconscious response that is developed by practice, with careful attention to achieving good results.
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.

[kalijah]

[deleted_user_687c31b]