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What will be the "legendary" vintage horn of the f


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Getzen
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The one thing that gives me hope is what is happening today with things like vinyl albums and the "foodie" movement. While the mass appeal is obviously towards digital music and convenient food, there is a strong sub-section of society that thrives on the more artisanal, crafted end of the spectrum. I don't see that trend changing. I firmly believe there will always be a segment that enjoys to process as much as the end result.
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AlanK17
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would love for the Edwards X-13 to become a future classic, but in the meantime I'd suggest maybe the Marcinkiewicz horns?
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AndyDavids
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AlanK17 wrote:
I would love for the Edwards X-13 to become a future classic, but in the meantime I'd suggest maybe the Marcinkiewicz horns?
I've seen their website, beautiful models! They are not being produced anymore? Definitely a collector's item, rare as I haven't seen any...heard only 500 or so were made?
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tptptp
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kevin_soda wrote:
People have not been this hungry for live music in 100 years.


Man, I know it! At a live performance, I can feel, hear, see, and almost taste the years of sweat and tears, and the emotion necessary to make it happen. I don't get that as much with recorded or electronically produced music.
I hope humans forever appreciate that.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First and foremost (though they have been around for 70 years), the Schilke B1, B2, B6, etc. When they stop making these, they will be as or more sought after than a 50s Committee or the few Mt. Vernon Strads that have not been ruined with longer leadpipes.

After that:
- Wild Thing (volume is a challenge - have to be enough out there to drive the market)
- Bach Artisan 37
- Bach Philly C
- Yamaha Chicago C (only if they dont keep making better ones)
- Yamaha Shew
- Monette Raja (Maybe, and more C than Bb, but volume will probably not be enough to make it)

All of these? Probably not. But from this list likely.
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Ron Berndt
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2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1927 Conn 22B NYS
1957 Holton Model 27 Stratodyne
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson British Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm going to take a different tack on this subject. I think there will be specific horns from the first 100 or so years that serious collectors will hunt down.

Arturo Sandoval's personal gold plated Wild Thing with his name engraved on the side of the bell. Bonus find: the matching Wild Thing with "Flip Oakes" engraved on it. Both horns produced and engraved at the same time.

Genuine documentable Louis Armstrong Selmer.

The trumpet used by Miles Davis to record A Kind of Blue

Dizzie Gilespie's upturned bell trumpet(s)

Harry James'trumpet(s)

The top choice for me (and I think there are several reasons, not the least of which is the singularity and world renown) is this:

Herb Alpert's gold lated Chicago Benge
that he played during the TJB years.

What are some you might covet, if you were to be a collector in 70 years?
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Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
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There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
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Winghorn
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I already have one sort of like the above. It is the Holton C-150 pocket cornet owned and played by jazz great Don Ellis. I purchased it from his sister about 10 years ago.

It is actually a trumpet version which I believe is a one-off custom model made by Holton for Don. It came in its original case and it, along with the trumpet, are in remarkable, original condition.

It also came with one of Don's mouthpieces in gold plate, which is stamped COS. It has a stair-step outer design and was made by Rudy Muck.
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Letstalktrumpet
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
First and foremost (though they have been around for 70 years), the Schilke B1, B2, B6, etc. When they stop making these, they will be as or more sought after than a 50s Committee or the few Mt. Vernon Strads that have not been ruined with longer leadpipes.

After that:
- Wild Thing (volume is a challenge - have to be enough out there to drive the market)
- Bach Artisan 37
- Bach Philly C
- Yamaha Chicago C (only if they dont keep making better ones)
- Yamaha Shew
- Monette Raja (Maybe, and more C than Bb, but volume will probably not be enough to make it)

All of these? Probably not. But from this list likely.


What do you mean about the Mt.V leadpipes?

I played an original and unaltered 1,xxx bach not too long ago and did not like it at all. Very stuffy and tight but had a nice sound.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Letstalktrumpet wrote:
OldSchoolEuph wrote:
First and foremost (though they have been around for 70 years), the Schilke B1, B2, B6, etc. When they stop making these, they will be as or more sought after than a 50s Committee or the few Mt. Vernon Strads that have not been ruined with longer leadpipes.

After that:
- Wild Thing (volume is a challenge - have to be enough out there to drive the market)
- Bach Artisan 37
- Bach Philly C
- Yamaha Chicago C (only if they dont keep making better ones)
- Yamaha Shew
- Monette Raja (Maybe, and more C than Bb, but volume will probably not be enough to make it)

All of these? Probably not. But from this list likely.


What do you mean about the Mt.V leadpipes?

I played an original and unaltered 1,xxx bach not too long ago and did not like it at all. Very stuffy and tight but had a nice sound.


Bachs are by design among the higher resistance alternatives. Some folks dont like that (I am drifting that way myself). But they do respond reliably, with incredible tone, and project well. The 190 series seem to be a little less demanding of energy to make speak - not sure why - and may be a good alternative for someone looking for a Bach, but not liking that feel.

The Bach 180 (everything built after the first <25,000 horns - we're at a million now) has the same wrap height as the classic Mt. Vernon. To get some of the resistance and other characteristics he was after, Bach locked in on that initial radius at the tuning slide that has never changed. As the wrap grew taller over 3 successive increases, the front of the slide, which originally was a Besson D shape, ultimately became flat (like the Holton Bach performed on). That in combination with the what he was going for makes for a very "secure slotting" (or centers like a straight-jacket) type of horn. This relieves the player of much of the responsibility for centering the pitch, which is why the design has spread to the vast majority of makes out there today.

The 180 when it moved to Elkhart also became the heaviest horns Bach built - with the brass stock standards remaining the same today.

Vincent Bach however preferred a faster responding and more flexible centering horn. For that reason, not only were his standard bells the .020" stock we now call lightweight, but he deliberately designed the horn with a shorter leadpipe and lower sleeve so that you pulled about an inch for A=440. The interesting quirk of that longer disruption in the tube wall was to make the horn looser. While not as loose as a Schilke, it allows you to easily match whatever out of tune players you are with - a nice feature if you have the skills to be responsible for your own intonation

Unfortunately, with every Bach player out there today starting on a 180, when they finally get a coveted Mt. Vernon, they think something is wrong because it is looser - so they have Charlie Melk put a new leadpipe and sleeve on it. Ruining it as far as what Bach intended and for all of us who can find the center ourselves.

Unaltered Mt. Vernons are exceptionally rare today. I had a line on one new to market for $3400 last night. It was gone by 7 AM.
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1927 Conn 22B NYS
1957 Holton Model 27 Stratodyne
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson British Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really don’t think the full value of all the good existing designs have been explored yet. I would like to see the airflow in the valves maximized to the point where the airflow enters in the center of valves like some leblancs and conn vocabel or the olds superstar. To me these have the best blow. These horns all have same valves 1-3 and all line the slides with same exit. Surely with all the CAD and other tools valves could be configured to eliminate the bumps common to all current designs but MAW and these don’t have center flow. I also love the projection and tone of rimless bells, and think that more can be done with combinations of materials to tailor tone. Something like this will survive and thrive because it will help us play more efficiently. None of this new ground but it would make for a unusual looking trumpet compared to standard.
Just my opinion, and I am looking to build this if possible just for me.
Rod
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally, I'm looking for a 1st run WalMart trumpet in mint condition. Sure, there were millions built and sold, but one that hasn't fallen apart? What a money maker that would be! With an original purchase price of $150.00, I'm sure such a time capsule could sell at auction for, what... $155.00??


You read it here first.

Just sayin'
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Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
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improver
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bach. As they say they are the most copied trumpet in the world but never duplicated. Certainly there will always be other boutique horns for anti Bach guys, , but for the money Bach was is and will be gold standard.
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improver
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also think Brett Getzen makes a great point. Certainly Getzen horns will be around.
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delano
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems that 'legendary' horns are good horns that no longer are produced. So we have to wait which company will be broke or assimilated in another one.
What are the legendary horns now? Olds , Martin, Bach NY and Mt V, Benge. All gone.
Candidates (I don't want to be cynical): Calicchio, Marcinkiewicz, Schilke B, maybe a Kanstul made.
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improver
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I'm not going to argue with the legendary horn thing, but with the purchase of a newer Bach 37 with a reversed leadpipe yesterday I'm convinced the new Bachs arer the best horn on the market today. Especially with all the custom options. They've upped their game even more. After listening to Paolo Fresu on his Bach I bought a newer one. Many European guys play them. Rava, Fresu, Cossimo Boni, Mathias Eich etc. For the money they play so well. Of course other makers make great equipment. I'm 63 and I'm at the stage I want the horn to play itself. I'm in agreement with Ingrid Jensen, I put the old tight restrictive refurbished equipment away.
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