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Why did Martin go out of business?


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blownchops
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:50 pm    Post subject: Why did Martin go out of business? Reply with quote

The thread on vintage horns has me thinking.

If the martin committee today is regarded as a jazz super horn and there are multiple companies trying to copy the martin committee, why did martin get bought out and sold and finally ran out of business like it was? Were people not buying Committee models back in the 50's?

What happened to cause their downturn? I know there was some Committee models made in Kenosha,WI by Leblanc. Were those not up to par?

I just cant fathom how a company that seemed to have such a dynamite product that is so well regarded close their doors while the Amati company keeps plugging along.
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a history of Martin:

https://www.trumpet-history.com/The%20Martin%20Companies%20-%20web.htm
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Goby
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 10:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Why did Martin go out of business? Reply with quote

blownchops wrote:
The thread on vintage horns has me thinking.

If the martin committee today is regarded as a jazz super horn and there are multiple companies trying to copy the martin committee, why did martin get bought out and sold and finally ran out of business like it was? Were people not buying Committee models back in the 50's?

What happened to cause their downturn? I know there was some Committee models made in Kenosha,WI by Leblanc. Were those not up to par?

I just cant fathom how a company that seemed to have such a dynamite product that is so well regarded close their doors while the Amati company keeps plugging along.



This may be heretical, but Martin Committees were never meant be the best trumpet of all time. In 1957, a Committee Deluxe was $225 and a Standard Committee was $190. For comparison, an Olds Special in the same year was $170 and the Mendez was $320. The Committee is largely associated with jazz musicians/beboppers, who were buying Committees because they were cheap for a pro horn and got the job done. I'm sure their association with Dizzy and Miles helped their sales, but the instrument was never an artisanal, mysterious creation summoned into existence by the elder craftsmen only to be lost to history. Just like how jazz musicians bought Couesnon flugels because they were cheap, the same thing happened with the Committee. Today Couesnon flugels and Martin Committees are "the" sound that every modern maker is after because they were in the hands of some of the greatest players of all time.

The Committee, despite the legends, really wasn't that well made. They certainly sound great, at least the ones still around in 2021 do, but you don't have to look too closely to see irregular bell bends, fragile construction, and crooked letters engraved on the bell.

Now if you're reading this and getting the impression that I don't like Committees, I would like to dispel that notion. I love these horns and recommend them to anyone looking for a nice vintage instrument. However, I think it's important to consider the historical and economic context of their creation and demise.

Considering that the Martin Company was on the low end of professional instruments, it was certainly inevitable that they would be absorbed by larger companies and eventually relegated to the history books. Just look at Benge, King, Conn, Olds and many more. All consolidated under corporate umbrellas and eventually closed as a variety of economic conditions in 20th century along with short-sighted leadership brought about their demise.

After what must have been a decent amount of success and popularity in the 40's and 50's, Martin introduced a new version of the Committee, the Custom Committee/Magna in 1959. A few years later they would be bought by RMC, who added their shield to the engraving on the bell of the Committee deluxe, and later by Wurlitzer and then Holton. Each change in ownership generally corresponds to a step down in quality (as with Olds and even Bach), although horns from these eras should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis, as there are certainly some good ones in there. By the time the "Committee" was being made in Kenosha, it was virtually unrecognizable from the original. The bell and leadpipe mandrels were different, the tuning slide setup was different, the valve block was different, and even the braces were different.

Judgements based on cost aside, Committees are extremely versatile horns and excellent players (when you have a good one). The top space E/Eb/D is notoriously flat, although this "bug" became a "feature" because it makes you sound like Miles. Sonically, they can do everything from Maynard Ferguson to Chet Baker. I think the most apt description is "versatile within the genre of jazz".

The bracing structure and leadpipe design would go on to influence Schilke (who may very well be the "heir" to the committee design). Modern reproductions all change something about the instrument, as modern musicians have higher expectations in terms of playability and intonation.

My personal preference for Committee homages is the Schilke Handcraft series. They aren't a 1:1 replica per se, more of an evolution of the design while also being innovative. The fact that they're Wallace Roney approved is a big plus. The Schilke B1 was Reynold's original revision fo the Committee design. The B7 and X4 are closest (on paper) to the M bore and L bore Committees, respectively. I also like the Adams A9 from a design/aesthetics perspective (it was designed with Ambrose Akinmusire and based off of a laser scan of his horn), but I haven't owned one (yet) so I'll reserve judgements on playability.
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SMrtn
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2021 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@ Goby

Thanks, that was a good read. Good info on the Schilke Handcraft too. Something to keep in mind as far as I'm concerned.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2021 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is the Schilke Handcraft Series only in large bore or in the original medium bore, as well? Thanks.
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Goby
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2021 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As far as I know, they only make the HC line in XL bore (.468"). You could probably contact them and order a custom one, although I wouldn't let the large bore size scare you off, they're fabulous players. I know they're making tuning bell HC trumpets, so I don't think they'd be too concerned about putting a HC bell on a M bore block for you. The B7 is typically considered the Schilke equivalent to a M bore committee, as it has their #1 bell, which Reynold supposedly copied from Martin, and is built on a medium bore block.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2021 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Schilke is .468" only. It's a wonderful trumpet in its own right, but it sounded nothing like the 1956 Martin Committee Deluxe I was able to A/B it with once.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2021 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Goby
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2021 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The reasons that companies fail or are purchased and wound up or absorbed by rivals are far more complex than simple reasons like they made a good or a bad product.

Lets take an example of a company who have an unfavorable gearing ratio where the borrowings exceed the owners equity leading to lack of confidence and a depressed share price.

Let us assume that the company makes instruments and has a lot of capital value invested in brass tubing brass sheets machine tools and other stock.

If the company shares are depressed further in value in a recession or during downturns in the market, an asset stripper could view the company as owning more assets than the cost of acquiring them and then purchase the company outright.

An investment of 3 million dollars could give the stripper ownership of 5 million dollars worth of stock and capital items the company is then purchased split apart and sold off making a 2 million dollar instant profit and the asset stripper moves on.

Another route to failure is borrowing venture capital then selling product successfully but finding that many of the purchasers dont pay quickly enough and leads to cash flow problems and the venture capitalists then call in the loans that cannot be paid due to the company not being liquid in cash even if it has full order books and a healthy bottom line.

The entire business can then unravel financially. If a company is put in the hands of a receiver due to an unpaid debt amounting to 10 or 20 thousand dollars the receiver might charge 50 thousand dollars for their services ensuring that the company immediately sinks without trace.

We may never know the reasons Martin failed but they are unlikely to be due to anything product or quality related.
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Brent
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2021 6:06 am    Post subject: Committees Reply with quote

Goby:

That's one of the best posts I've read about Martin Committees. If you read some ads from the 50's, they promote them as being a "range maker," and don't really talk about them having a "smokey" sound.

In the early 90's, I spoke with a salesman who was of retirement age. When I brought up Committees, he laughed, and said "I couldn't give those horns away, back in the day!"


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Dan Longo
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2021 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

to Goby,
Your information on the Martin Committee is totally incorrect.
I have owned as many as 10 Martin Committee's from 1947-1960
Plus friends of mine have as well.
Never has there been any inconsistency on the bell written or flowering.
Furthermore Martin had perhaps some of the greatest Valves of any horn.
From the factory the horns came out with great Precision to quality and detail.
So your thread is a very false claim towards the Martin Trumpets.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2021 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I’m gonna disagree with “Goby” a little bit too.

First, miles Davis was a great trumpet player, so implying that people would dig a horn that plays out of tune because it made them sound like miles is a lame thing to say. Plus, the D/Eb/E on all the martin’s I’ve had (5) were remarkable NOT flat. Way better than a Bach or Benge. And miles typically is not flat on those notes either. Listen to his intonation of porgy and Bess by the way.

The oddity with intonation was the middle G is a bit sharp, and on most horns it’s either a bit flat or right on. So if someone is used to setting the tuning slide to that middle G, they might end up with the slide too far out.

Martin Valves were expertly made, and the martin valve block was superior in design. It’s the same block Schilke used or at least the same design. Martin’s had good compression and really flawless action, like a selmer K-mod. Lots of horns had great valves, and martin made great valves.

Back in the day, martin was known mainly for being a bright sounding high note horn. They advertised the upper register, and THAT, is what made the education crowd sour on the martin. College band directors told there students NOT to get a martin, and they told there band director students to tell their kids NOT to get a martin. Because they were bright and would not fit with classical rep. They thought that cuz martin said so, and the great great players that played martin all had a bright sound.
Players like:
Dizzy Gillespie, Ernie royal, al hirt, Pete candoli, and on and on. There were very few players who played martin that were “dark”. Chet baker mainly, and he sounded darker on a Bach anyway. So the point is that educators killed the martin committee. They pushed Bach and Benge so hard it was crazy, with everything else like constellations, and silver flairs, and even Schilke being “jazz horns”. Who was Schilke most visible player? Bill chase when he switched from martin to Schilke.

So the bottom line is, they went out of the trumpet business when the biggest market became education (no more big band era with 35000 full time touring musicians all across the U.S) and educators hated a bright trumpet. Blame Harry Begian, or Leonard falcone, or John paynter etc for that.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2021 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lipshurt wrote:
Yeah, I’m gonna disagree with “Goby” a little bit too.

First, miles Davis was a great trumpet player, so implying that people would dig a horn that plays out of tune because it made them sound like miles is a lame thing to say. Plus, the D/Eb/E on all the martin’s I’ve had (5) were remarkable NOT flat. Way better than a Bach or Benge. And miles typically is not flat on those notes either. Listen to his intonation of porgy and Bess by the way.

The oddity with intonation was the middle G is a bit sharp, and on most horns it’s either a bit flat or right on. So if someone is used to setting the tuning slide to that middle G, they might end up with the slide too far out.

Martin Valves were expertly made, and the martin valve block was superior in design. It’s the same block Schilke used or at least the same design. Martin’s had good compression and really flawless action, like a selmer K-mod. Lots of horns had great valves, and martin made great valves.

Back in the day, martin was known mainly for being a bright sounding high note horn. They advertised the upper register, and THAT, is what made the education crowd sour on the martin. College band directors told there students NOT to get a martin, and they told there band director students to tell their kids NOT to get a martin. Because they were bright and would not fit with classical rep. They thought that cuz martin said so, and the great great players that played martin all had a bright sound.
Players like:
Dizzy Gillespie, Ernie royal, al hirt, Pete candoli, and on and on. There were very few players who played martin that were “dark”. Chet baker mainly, and he sounded darker on a Bach anyway. So the point is that educators killed the martin committee. They pushed Bach and Benge so hard it was crazy, with everything else like constellations, and silver flairs, and even Schilke being “jazz horns”. Who was Schilke most visible player? Bill chase when he switched from martin to Schilke.

So the bottom line is, they went out of the trumpet business when the biggest market became education (no more big band era with 35000 full time touring musicians all across the U.S) and educators hated a bright trumpet. Blame Harry Begian, or Leonard falcone, or John paynter etc for that.

Interesting. I see that clueless... I mean, narrow minded band directors have been peddling their views on unsuspecting students for decades.

It's interesting that Benge was included with Bach, because later, I think Benge was treated similarly to Martin. It's just slightly before my time, so I'm not sure, but I've gotten that impression talking with older locals.
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Goby
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2021 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crazy Finn wrote:
lipshurt wrote:

So the point is that educators killed the martin committee. They pushed Bach and Benge so hard it was crazy, with everything else like constellations, and silver flairs, and even Schilke being “jazz horns”.

So the bottom line is, they went out of the trumpet business when the biggest market became education (no more big band era with 35000 full time touring musicians all across the U.S) and educators hated a bright trumpet. Blame Harry Begian, or Leonard falcone, or John paynter etc for that.


Interesting. I see that clueless... I mean, narrow minded band directors have been peddling their views on unsuspecting students for decades.


Always sad to see teachers getting blamed for problems these days. Here is a quote from Horn-u-copia regarding finances behind the RMC merger: "In 1960, Chicago Musical Instruments (Olds) sold the company to a new holding company, Richards Music Corporation. RMC then acquired Scherl & Roth, (Reynolds), E.K. Blessing Company, and Martin by 1962. The merger was short lived however as the debt incurred to acquire so many companies was unsupportable with the shrinking sales of even leveraged existing product. RMC folded in 1963, and Wurlitzer acquired Martin.


From 1964 to 1969, Wurlitzer, which had stenciled and occasionally built brass instruments almost since its founding, elected to retire from band instrument manufacturing. In 1971, Martin was sold to Leblanc USA. All Leblanc research and development in brasswinds was consolidated at the Martin plant in Elkhart."


From the National Center for Educational Statistics (USA), the percentage of students enrolled in music between 1915 and 1963 stayed between 25 and 30 percent, peaking at 30% in 1948-9 and falling to 28% by 1960-1. Although the population greatly increased in this time (the high school population wouldn't have greatly increased until the 70's following the post-WWII baby boom), the enrollment in music staying constant would not show evidence of a large shift in culture around high school music. High school directors didn't just decide "all of the sudden" that Martin (or any other "bright") trumpets were unsuitable for use by students. Especially considering that, at the time, lots of Symphonic players were still playing on F. Bessons, the C trumpet had just gotten a foot hold in Chicago, and marching and dance bands were incredibly popular, a bright horn should have been widely accepted under these conditions. On top of this, Martin designed and released the "custom committee" C trumpet in 1959 with BSO principal Armando Ghitala. They were hardly boxed out of the "classical" market and were dominating the jazz world.


Referring to my earlier post, a Martin Committee was $190, an Olds Mendez was $320, and a Bach Strad was $375 in 1957. The price difference between Bach Strad and a Martin was $185, or roughly $1700 in modern currency, adjusting for inflation. This should have made the Martin more popular than Bach, especially with students. Just look at how well the Olds Ambassador did during this same time period.


While I'm sure band directors have a significant impact on what trumpets their students purchase, that explanation for the death of Martin is simply not consistent with reality, especially given the financial state of Martin's parent companies. Nothing more clearly explains the drops in quality as each subsequent reacquisition and restructuring of the company.




Sources for those who are interested:

https://www.horn-u-copia.net/Reference/display.php
https://nces.ed.gov/pubs93/93442.pdf
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2021 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lipshurt wrote:

So the point is that educators killed the martin committee. They pushed Bach and Benge so hard it was crazy, with everything else like constellations, and silver flairs, and even Schilke being “jazz horns”.

So the bottom line is, they went out of the trumpet business when the biggest market became education (no more big band era with 35000 full time touring musicians all across the U.S) and educators hated a bright trumpet. Blame Harry Begian, or Leonard falcone, or John paynter etc for that.

Crazy Finn wrote:

Interesting. I see that clueless... I mean, narrow minded band directors have been peddling their views on unsuspecting students for decades.

Goby wrote:

Always sad to see teachers getting blamed for problems these days.

Sigh, speaking as a former teacher, I agree. It's really a pretty minor point, if it is true for the Martin thing (I have no idea, I was not around). I suspect there was a number of things going on.

Speaking both as a former music/band director and someone who worked in music retail with teachers, it's not uncommon for teachers to have views on equipment that they impose on their programs. For example, a beginning band teacher wants all their students to start on a Bach 5C. Any guesses as to what that teacher personally plays? It's just as bad with woodwinds, too. A lot of teachers get it drilled into their heads that their students should play on Bach Strad 37 trumpets, Bach 42 Trombones, Buffet R13 clarinets, Holton Farkas or Conn 8D horns (usually one or the other, not a choice) and so forth. There is nothing wrong with any of these instruments - they're fairly solid options, but it's more than a little narrow-minded to think that these are the only good choices out there today, or even back in the day - and always the best choice for every student. We're supposed to think of students as individuals, but apparently they're all the same. A bit contradictory....
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Brent
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2021 6:29 pm    Post subject: Committees Reply with quote

This article has been around for a while, and has previously been posted. Still worth having another look:

https://everythingtrumpet.com/gearhead/Martin_Committee.html
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2021 3:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have there been any 'Consumer Reports' type product reviews of trumpets?
How about 'test panel playing sessions' at big instrument display events?

It seems to me that most 'information' about the quality and suitability of instruments comes from:
the maker's advertising,
individual player opinions, and the 'image' of the player,
perception of what groups (orchestra, bands) and individuals use them.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2021 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For what it is worth, back in about 1966 I had this very discussion with my high school director, who was a woodwind guy and widely respected in our area, and his opinion back then was that the successful instrument manufacturers at that time were focused on the school student needs, and Martin's model specifically was focused on selling to the pro players, and expecting the pro demand to affect student interest, which did not materialize.

Of course only a few years later, almost all the big manufacturers were in trouble due to an infusion of MBA geniuses making poor decisions!
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having been around trumpets a good many years, and belief in having the best I could afford, to me there was always the Unobtainium 'Martin Committee'. I've played in bands where every now and then I'd see one and gasp, ask if I could hold it, etc. I remember a couple of Committees being relatively garish, if I may be so bold.

By the time I really started to follow Chris Botti I wanted one even more because of all the hype. I really never knew any real facts about the horn(s) but the myths had me hooked.

Bottom line is I never owned an MC and after reading this info, including all the disclaimers and 'holes' in the history, I no longer feel as though I really missed anything. I've had, and still do have, some nice horns but that feeling like I never made it to the top of Everest has left me.

It's nice to be a little less ignorant and more informed and I appreciate the efforts put forth to bring this version of the Martin Committee story to us. If a Martin Committee was the 'Rolls' of the trumpet world they would probably still be making them just as Rolls Royce is still in business and competition in the auto industry is fierce. There even may be a Martin Committee jet engine around by now! Talk about turbulence and harmonic nodes...
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ECLtmpt2 wrote:
Having been around trumpets a good many years, and belief in having the best I could afford, to me there was always the Unobtainium 'Martin Committee'. I've played in bands where every now and then I'd see one and gasp, ask if I could hold it, etc. I remember a couple of Committees being relatively garish, if I may be so bold.

By the time I really started to follow Chris Botti I wanted one even more because of all the hype. I really never knew any real facts about the horn(s) but the myths had me hooked.

Bottom line is I never owned an MC and after reading this info, including all the disclaimers and 'holes' in the history, I no longer feel as though I really missed anything. I've had, and still do have, some nice horns but that feeling like I never made it to the top of Everest has left me.

It's nice to be a little less ignorant and more informed and I appreciate the efforts put forth to bring this version of the Martin Committee story to us. If a Martin Committee was the 'Rolls' of the trumpet world they would probably still be making them just as Rolls Royce is still in business and competition in the auto industry is fierce. There even may be a Martin Committee jet engine around by now! Talk about turbulence and harmonic nodes...


It's possible to play great jazz on any decent trumpet in good working condition. The lure of the Martin Committee isn't that it's a superlative horn. It's a good horn but there are lots of good horns. The lure of the Martin Committee is in its connection to the history of jazz music, especially to Miles Davis. It's the trumpet equivalent of the Selmer Mark VI tenor saxophone. There are lots of great tenor saxophones and it's possible to play great jazz on any of them but the Selmer Mark VI is the legendary standard for jazz tenor saxophones just as the Martin Committee is the legendary standard for jazz trumpets.

I have two Martin Committee Deluxe trumpets, a medium bore and a large bore. When I play them I feel connected to the golden era of bebop and hard bop jazz, but that's just me. If you don't value a connection like that then the Martin Committee is just another trumpet. If you do value a connection like that then the Martin Committee is the only trumpet.
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