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Voltrane
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

« My experience suggests that someone, by observation of the 'student,' with the practical experience, understanding and ability to implement the instruction would assist greatly anyone attempting to adopt the recommended procedure.« 
If I am not mistaken, the « someone » is what we usually call a teacher...I have nothing against this method but when you see all the « check-list before take-off » the « Embouchure self-analysis » title seems a little optimistic.
If you read the stories of people who had lessons with a « master » (Caruso, Gordon, Frink, Schlossberg and so on), they always tell you that the master adapted the method and exercices to the student.I would say » of course ». I am sure that Costello, Steven, Roman would have adapted the dogma to your own needs.
So beware of « little red books! » whatever the book, meet the teacher!
That said, I have found 3 interesting points in the Book (let alone the muscle identification)
1- the way to make an efficient pencil exercise
2- the necessity to avoid a too much receded jaw in order to
3- avoid the pressure only on the top lip.

A 4th point also exists but in my opinion may be without enough focus: the « abdominal breath  and exhalation « that provides the necessary air pressure to make what Mr Roman does. Yes you need some strong and flexible chops for that but also (if not mainly) a lot of air pressure.
This last point has been the basic point of the French way of playing for decades. I was teached like that as soon as the 62’ and it was close to what I read in the book regarding this point.
Oh, and if there were only one way to go to Rome, I think it would be well known today.
That said, good luck.
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Eliot
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

razeontherock wrote:
As I understand it, SC requires an upstream setting. I don't have one of those.

What is your experience with tongue arch?


Up stream embouchure setting? Yes they do.
As I understand it, while they don't condemn the downstream embouchure they seem to concede that one will never hit the limits they suggest are possible with downstream setting.

For me to achieve a definite upstream setting I am compelled to extend the lower jaw bone into a very unnatural more forward location (as they recommend) than is comfortable to achieve the "parallel" location of upper and lower teeth.

Tongue arch? I reckon it works ...
My physics and chemistry lessons 55 years or so ago taught me about Boyles law which links pressure and volume, they being inversely proportional with constant temperature.

That suggests to me that if the buccal cavity (volume) as a closed system, is reduced by arching the tongue (and not permitting any air pockets in the cheeks or lips to occur), then the pressure within the cavity is increased.

My intuition suggests that with a constant stream of air (as there supposedly is when blowing through the lips aperture for a specific note), if the pressure is increased either by additional volume of air being loaded into the (constant volume) mouth cavity by the lungs and diaphragm, or by raising the tongue, then the air expelled through the lips will be at a greater pressure (speed?) to vibrate the lips at a higher frequency.

Did arching the tongue work for me? Yes!
But note, I am of the impression that there can be subtle movements of the tongue that can essentially go unnoticed by the player, achieving the same effect as a conscious movement of the tongue.

The above is my experience thus far. It could change as I (hopefully) progress with my enjoyment of these ridiculously simple, yet at the same time complex, and complex to play, instruments.

Just a word of caution:
I am not a music teacher though I have progressed, years ago, through various Australian Music Examination Board grades to reach a certain proficiency (definitely not professional) in pianoforte playing. Neither am I qualified in any of the sciences, or mathematics. I do have, though, a couple of post graduate Masters degrees in business, but they have absolutely no relationship to playing trumpet. The research methods and case study analysis has, though, helped in my analysis of much written work.
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Eliot
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Voltrane wrote:
« My experience suggests that someone, by observation of the 'student,' with the practical experience, understanding and ability to implement the instruction would assist greatly anyone attempting to adopt the recommended procedure.« 
If I am not mistaken, the « someone » is what we usually call a teacher...I have nothing against this method but when you see all the « check-list before take-off » the « Embouchure self-analysis » title seems a little optimistic.
If you read the stories of people who had lessons with a « master » (Caruso, Gordon, Frink, Schlossberg and so on), they always tell you that the master adapted the method and exercices to the student.I would say » of course ». I am sure that Costello, Steven, Roman would have adapted the dogma to your own needs.
So beware of « little red books! » whatever the book, meet the teacher!
That said, I have found 3 interesting points in the Book (let alone the muscle identification)
1- the way to make an efficient pencil exercise
2- the necessity to avoid a too much receded jaw in order to
3- avoid the pressure only on the top lip.

A 4th point also exists but in my opinion may be without enough focus: the « abdominal breath  and exhalation « that provides the necessary air pressure to make what Mr Roman does. Yes you need some strong and flexible chops for that but also (if not mainly) a lot of air pressure.
This last point has been the basic point of the French way of playing for decades. I was teached like that as soon as the 62’ and it was close to what I read in the book regarding this point.
Oh, and if there were only one way to go to Rome, I think it would be well known today.
That said, good luck.


Agree!

Are you able to elucidate on (quote) I was teached like that as soon as the 62’ and it was close to what I read in the book regarding this point. especially "the 62'"
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Voltrane
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2021 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As English is not my mother tongue, I will search to the right wording or the pages in the book this afternoon but to sum up : let the abdomen « fall » to inhale, feeling like the stomach and abdomen go outward, that makes a natural breath, do not make an « artificial » big breath, contract the abdo and stomach inward when you exhale. My first teacher Robert Pichaureau, friend of Maurice André, teacher of Maurice André’s son, godfather of Thierry Caens, teached me this and once told me: « If you play ok, you should have abdo aches ». By the way it was also him that told me: « hey, you are playing trumpet, not taking off a Boeing ».
Funny enough, I attended last year before COVID to a David Guerrier master class and he insisted on this way of breathing before everything. He is coming of the same school!
I will try to find some references in the book later but once again it is difficult to explain trumpet playing by words on an Internet forum!
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Eliot
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2021 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Voltrane"]As English is not my mother tongue, I will search to the right wording or the pages in the book this afternoon but to sum up : let the abdomen « fall » to inhale, feeling like the stomach and abdomen go outward, that makes a natural breath, do not make an « artificial » big breath, contract the abdo and stomach inward when you exhale. ...[/quote

Thank you for this clarification. Seems, I think from the above, that you were referring to a particular page number where your post sums up the instruction provided.

Thank you for clearing that up for me. Much appreciated.
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Voltrane
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I send to you a pm.
Regards
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Voltrane
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2021 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eliot,

I do not know why but my private message does not want to leave my outbox...so I post a summing up:
- what is described in page 25 of the book is quite exactly what I was talking about.
- Regarding the embouchure, here is a link to a page with a drawing of Robert Pichaureau playing (down left)
https://ecole-partouche.com/fichiers_documents/trompetterespir.ion
Not far from the bulldog setting, but we never spoke of millimeters about jaw or teeth alignment.
Regards.
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SteveDurand
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eliot,
Here are my comments regarding your points.

1) Upsteam setting: S-C is not specifically upstream. This term typically refers to the ratio of top lip vs bottom lip in the mouthpiece cup. More top lip would be downstream and more bottom lip would be upstream. The S-C systems posits a neutral setting where the ratio is equal. I have had good success by using slightly more top lip in the cup. This is one of the variables that you should experiment with.

While it may be difficult for you to obtain the alignment of the teeth due to you physiology, it still may be beneficial to move the bottom teeth forward a bit to get closer to the parallel setting.

2) Tongue arch: While your basic physics is correct, the application of your understanding related to the Buccal cavity is incomplete. The Buccal cavity is not a closed system unless you block off the passageway to your lungs. You can do this briefly but you cannot sustain a note doing this. In normal playing, nothing that you can do with your tongue can increase the pressure beyond that supplied by your lungs.

In order to raise the pitch, the vibrating surface must become either tighter, shorter or some combination of the two. There is no way around this. Higher air pressure (supplied by the lungs) is needed to overcome the increased resistance of the vibrating surface. The higher air pressure itself does not cause accelerated vibrations.

3) Did arching the tongue work for me?: As I posted before, with careful experimentation of isolating tongue movement from other motions. I determined that, for me, no type of tongue action had any effect on pitch.

As you said, there are subtle movements that the player is not consciously aware of and my hypothesis is that the motions players use to effect tongue arch are causing related movements in the jaw.

That being said, if using tongue arch works for you, do it. The most important thing about any of this is that you get the results that you want.

Steve
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Eliot
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi again Steve,

Thanks again for contributing. I reckon I'm getting to understand the S&C concepts and recommendations better as I "hear" the comments and examine my own thinking and comments.

Re
Upstream setting
My understanding atm is that the lip setting S&C recommend will result in an upstream air movement. Costello's diagram on p92 of the pdf file I've downloaded (Part II, The Stevens - Costello Triple C Embouchure Technique) is pretty clear, but may well be an exaggerated description and/or I may be misunderstanding S&C. Once again though, it seems to boil down to "what works for you."

Tongue arch & buccal cavity as a closed system
Question: Does not the air being expelled from the lungs prevent reverse airflow down both the gullet and the windpipe? Effectively, that air pressure arising from the lungs' expulsion would then, for practical purposes and at that moment in time, seal the 'rear-end' of the system?

Once again, thank you for your explanations and contribution ... I'm taking on board all contribs.

At this stage though, I reckon my range is such that I need more development of the chops (pencil exercises included) before I spend effort and time attempting to push through some of the barriers of the S&C recommendations.

I've found it intensely interesting and informative to read of your experience - it gave me insight into the difficulty that one experiences as well as the change in embouchure technique required for the lower (normal?) range of playing.
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Eliot
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Voltrane wrote:
Eliot,

I do not know why but my private message does not want to leave my outbox...so I post a summing up:
- what is described in page 25 of the book is quite exactly what I was talking about.
- Regarding the embouchure, here is a link to a page with a drawing of Robert Pichaureau playing (down left)
https://ecole-partouche.com/fichiers_documents/trompetterespir.ion
Not far from the bulldog setting, but we never spoke of millimeters about jaw or teeth alignment.
Regards.


Hmmm ... interesting pic to which I can relate - when I'm having trouble with my embouchure and range!
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SteveDurand
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eliot wrote:
Hi again Steve,

Re
Upstream setting
My understanding atm is that the lip setting S&C recommend will result in an upstream air movement. Costello's diagram on p92 of the pdf file I've downloaded (Part II, The Stevens - Costello Triple C Embouchure Technique) is pretty clear, but may well be an exaggerated description and/or I may be misunderstanding S&C. Once again though, it seems to boil down to "what works for you."


I'm using the definition of upstream as identified by Reinhardt. Studies have found that the direction of the airstream is determined by the proportion of upper lip vs lower lip in the mouthpiece. Regardless of the picture in the S-C book, if you put more top lip in the cup you have a downstream embouchure.

One of my key discoveries when I was working it out was that it worked better for me if I put more top lip in the cup.

Eliot wrote:

Tongue arch & buccal cavity as a closed system
Question: Does not the air being expelled from the lungs prevent reverse airflow down both the gullet and the windpipe? Effectively, that air pressure arising from the lungs' expulsion would then, for practical purposes and at that moment in time, seal the 'rear-end' of the system?


If the movement of the tongue could somehow create more pressure than that supplied by the lungs then it would push the air back into the lungs and they would expand slightly. The system can only generate as much pressure as it weakest part. The tongue cannot create more pressure in the system than the lungs can provide.

Another thought about the tongue: Your tongue is always in your mouth and I think that it will always displace the same volume. So moving it up and forward will not create smaller Buccal cavity. Just a differently shaped one.

Thanks for the discussion. I enjoy it.

Steve
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Eliot
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Re Upstream setting
Hmmm ... your comment gives me more to think about and try to work out how to achieve it ... hopefully the old grey matter won't burst trying to contemplate it and then do it.

Re Buccal cavity ...
I'd never thought of the size/volume of the tongue remaining constant. Pity it doesn't keep out of the way at time, especially just before it gets in the way of one's bite while eating!

However, by moving the tongue up or down should have some implication for air flow, and maybe compression of the air flow. Hmmmmm ... something more to cogitate on.

Like I said above: more to think about, digest, work out and then try to implement., AND ...

Yep, I too have enjoyed the discussion and have endeavored to ensure that it doesn't end up as do some threads. Just wish that more would relate their experience with S&C to form a wider appraisal.

Thanks again for your contributions to the discussion.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:29 am    Post subject: Embouchure, Tongue, Mouthcapacity Reply with quote

...interesting discussion here but even more interesting are the theories about causal relationships between air and tongue position and producing of high pitch notes.

The old discussions about more air, compressed air, faster air are again involved... an endless story!

The position of the tongue does not effect pitch? Are you sure? There are methods which rely completly on that: take for example Callet‘s Super Chops. Even Claude Gordon claims some tongue arch to reach a higher register.

In my experience and avoiding the discussion of air volume and air speed I will use air pressure to describe the force to stimulate the lip tissue of the embouchure, or exactly the arperture of the embouchure which changes from wide to small wenn going from low to high register. A small arperture offers less lip tissue to be moved so you need more air pressure which can be done using diaphragm pressure and/or tongue position of course.

If the tip of the tounge is anchored behind the lower teeth or the lower lip and the upper side parts of the tongue are connected to the upper back molars and going higer in pitch even to all of the upper molars you will get some air path which can be restricted ore not. A more restricted air path will compress the air more and will bring the smaller aperture lip tissue to vibrate as well leading in gaining the high register as well.

That is my simple observation. Those who have their tounge unrestricted flowing in the mouth capacity, tonguing with the tip of the tongue somewhere in the upper teeth area ore elsewhere in the top of the inner mouth might have other opportunities to get the high register work - but I can‘t.

Oral resonance capacity might play some role here in tone quality of course - I know this because I also take lessons as a singer. If you use circular breathing you can recognize the role of the cheeks as well.

Anyway: I am an advocate of the importance of the tongue position - something seldom teached exactly because most of players and teachers are not aware of what is going on in their mouth.

Sorry for my english - it is not my mother tongue.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2021 4:35 am    Post subject: Re: Embouchure, Tongue, Mouthcapacity Reply with quote

shakuhachi wrote:
A more restricted air path will compress the air more.

It doesn't matter how many times this myth is repeated; it's still an imaginary violation of basic principles of elementary physics. If air is passing through the embouchure aperture and producing sound, it is physically impossible for the tongue to compress the air.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2021 6:39 am    Post subject: Re: Embouchure, Tongue, Mouthcapacity Reply with quote

shakuhachi wrote:

The position of the tongue does not effect pitch? Are you sure? There are methods which rely completly on that: take for example Callet‘s Super Chops. Even Claude Gordon claims some tongue arch to reach a higher register.


Superchops is about lip position and does not rely on tongue arch. I just checked, it specifically says "Never arch your tongue".
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shakuhachi
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2021 2:03 am    Post subject: tongue position Reply with quote

MM55:

I never indended to give a lesson on physics for trumpet playing...I simply tried to share my own trumpet experience and my own observations while playing trumpet unfortunately using terms which may mean different things in physics.

But anyway: I still miss the “basic principles of elementary physics“ which describe exactly the sound production playing a trumpet.

To have a map of reality to describe it - for example physics - does not mean one knows reality. Of course first of all you have to map the right description model on the real thing you currently observe.

MM55, I am waiting for your book about “elementary principles of elementary physics for trumpet playing“....this would thin out a lot of the contributions here in Trumpet Herald, especially in the subforums.

Omelet:

Could it be that you are confused between S-C and Callet Superchops?

S-C (Steven-Costello) is about Lip position, Callet Superchops is about tongue position. Believe me: my arsenal of trumpet methods in my storage is great and well studied as well.

Both:

It is not a thing of to be right or wrong - it is a thing of personal experience. The OP was confused about contradictions about the role of the tongue in different methods: so I simply added my experience - full stop.
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2021 7:36 am    Post subject: Re: tongue position Reply with quote

shakuhachi wrote:
Callet Superchops is about tongue position.


Callet Superchops is about a tongue controlled embouchure. Callet Superchops does promote the myth that the tongue can compress the air/increase the air pressure at the aperture.

Factually, the air pressure at the aperture is dictated by the lungs. If the tongue could increase the air pressure in the oral cavity to a level exceeding the air pressure being created by the lungs it would force the air to reverse course and flow back into the lungs.

Adequate air supply + adequate airflow + adequate muscle power + correct chop setting = desired note. It's that simple.

Adequate means adequate. Anything beyond adequate is unnecessary.

Most players have an adequate air supply, provide an adequate airflow and have adequate muscle power. Most problems are the result of an incorrect chop setting.

Increasing the air supply beyond adequate, increasing the airflow beyond adequate and increasing the muscle power beyond adequate will never overcome an incorrect chop setting.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2021 8:03 am    Post subject: Re: tongue position Reply with quote

HERMOKIWI wrote:
...
Adequate air supply + adequate airflow + adequate muscle power + correct chop setting = desired note. It's that simple.

Adequate means adequate. Anything beyond adequate is unnecessary.

Most players have an adequate air supply, provide an adequate airflow and have adequate muscle power. Most problems are the result of an incorrect chop setting. ...

---------------------------
That agrees with my view of the 'basics'.

'Correct chop setting' can have many differences due to physiology among players. The 'basic element' is that the lips must be ABLE to react (pulsate) at the desired rate (pitch) when there is AIR FLOW.
Some people notice that their tongue moves as a consequence of establishing the chop setting.
Some people consciously move their tongue to help establish the chop setting.

For playing, the precise physics and physiology about why and how a chop setting works and gets established is not very important. The important part for playing is learning how to establish and control the setting. For 'analysis' type people, trying to understand the physics and physiology can help them learn about chop setting, and help identify a chop setting that might be a problem, or that might be helpful.

'Adequate air flow' can be difficult to obtain if the chop setting or mouthpiece pressure produces too much resistance to air flow. Except for extremely high notes (perhaps higher than E above high C ?).
Most people can produce adequate internal air pressure to get adequate air flow, IF the chops are well adjusted.
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SteveDurand
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2021 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From my brief work with Callet's TCE, what I recall is that the tongue basically replaced the role of the bottom lip in your embouchure.

It was supposed to be held flat and wide across the length of the lower lip and provided the surface that the upper lip vibrated against. I don't remember anything about arching the tongue to ascend in range.

Steve
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shakuhachi
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2021 4:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HERMOKIWI:

Quote:
Factually, the air pressure at the aperture is dictated by the lungs. If the tongue could increase the air pressure in the oral cavity to a level exceeding the air pressure being created by the lungs it would force the air to reverse course and flow back into the lungs.


If it is so can you please explain how circular breathing is working then?

I can circular breath while playing trumpet or flut. Doing this you have to maintain the pressure in the mouth capacity keeping the air flow and vibriting (better pulsing!) of the lips whereas the lungs will inhale through the nose. So you have opposite movements of the diaphragm while inhaling and exhaling but maintaining a constant air stream to vibrate the lips.

I am eager to hear your theories about that.
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