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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3298 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2021 5:41 am Post subject: |
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shakuhachi wrote: | ...
If it is so can you please explain how circular breathing is working then?
I can circular breath while playing trumpet or flut. Doing this you have to maintain the pressure in the mouth capacity keeping the air flow and vibriting (better pulsing!) of the lips whereas the lungs will inhale through the nose. ... |
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I haven't learned circular breathing - is it a learnable skill, or does it require 'special physical coordination and ability'?
Is the circular breathing action begun immediately after starting to blow, or can it be delayed until running low on air?
While doing the nose inhale of circular breathing, is there still a feeling of having adequate internal air content and pressure.
Also during the inhale, it there a feeling of actual blowing through the mouthpiece, or is it more a matter of air escaping through the mouth while nose inhaling?
Perhaps it all depends on the player's internal air pressure remaining greater than the external mouthpiece air pressure, so that the air pressure difference can result in BOTH some air flow out from the mouth AND a greater air nose inflow. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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omelet Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Nov 2007 Posts: 245
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Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2021 6:19 am Post subject: |
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Regarding superchops, I did not mean to be argumentative or put you down. I simply was verbatim quoting out of the book. I agree that the more recent technique in TCE is a bit different.
shakuhachi wrote: | HERMOKIWI:
Quote: | Factually, the air pressure at the aperture is dictated by the lungs. If the tongue could increase the air pressure in the oral cavity to a level exceeding the air pressure being created by the lungs it would force the air to reverse course and flow back into the lungs. |
If it is so can you please explain how circular breathing is working then?
I can circular breath while playing trumpet or flut. Doing this you have to maintain the pressure in the mouth capacity keeping the air flow and vibriting (better pulsing!) of the lips whereas the lungs will inhale through the nose. So you have opposite movements of the diaphragm while inhaling and exhaling but maintaining a constant air stream to vibrate the lips.
I am eager to hear your theories about that. |
With circular breathing the pressure is created in the mouth by a constricting of the oral cavity with tongue/cheeks. The throat is closed so you can inhale thru the nose while maintaining pressure in the oral cavity. Totally different action. |
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581
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Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2021 7:28 am Post subject: |
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shakuhachi wrote: | HERMOKIWI:
Quote: | Factually, the air pressure at the aperture is dictated by the lungs. If the tongue could increase the air pressure in the oral cavity to a level exceeding the air pressure being created by the lungs it would force the air to reverse course and flow back into the lungs. |
If it is so can you please explain how circular breathing is working then?
I can circular breath while playing trumpet or flut. Doing this you have to maintain the pressure in the mouth capacity keeping the air flow and vibriting (better pulsing!) of the lips whereas the lungs will inhale through the nose. So you have opposite movements of the diaphragm while inhaling and exhaling but maintaining a constant air stream to vibrate the lips.
I am eager to hear your theories about that. |
During circular breathing the air and air pressure in the oral cavity is completely disconnected from the air and air pressure in the lungs. Therefore, during circular breathing it would be physically impossible for the air in the oral cavity to flow into the lungs. _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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trumpetteacher1 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 3404 Location: Garland, Texas
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Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2021 9:27 am Post subject: Re: Embouchure, Tongue, Mouthcapacity |
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omelet wrote: | shakuhachi wrote: |
The position of the tongue does not effect pitch? Are you sure? There are methods which rely completly on that: take for example Callet‘s Super Chops. Even Claude Gordon claims some tongue arch to reach a higher register.
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Superchops is about lip position and does not rely on tongue arch. I just checked, it specifically says "Never arch your tongue". |
Jerry, at one point, did say to never arch the tongue. But at issue is the exact definition of "tongue arch."
For some, tongue arch refers to raising the middle or back of the tongue, as done when saying ah-ee. For others, it includes moving the tongue up and forwards, which is the action advocated in Super Chops.
To my way of thinking, both are a form of tongue arch. In Jerry's version, the tongue takes on more of the bottom lip role, as Steve Durand mentioned.
Jeff |
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Trumpjerele Veteran Member
Joined: 20 Feb 2019 Posts: 169 Location: Spain
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Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2021 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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I got a Spanish version of the book Stevens and Costello. I was doing the exercises trying to follow the instructions faithfully. I didn't get much. I do not think it is a suitable book to do at home without the supervision of an "adult". I only tell my experience. But I think when you get successful with it, you get a lot of success. It has a very good reputation after many years.
About the book of Irons. I spent almost two years working on it with a teacher who ended up being a good friend. ( but only the part of flexibility, we did not work the articulation exercises of the book irons, we used the arban). Yes, I was progressing. looking back i think i got as far as i could with a limited embouchure. _________________ Notice!!! Amateur musician without formal studies
Trumpet: Yamaha 8310Z
Mouthpiece: the great Yamaha11b4
Sax tenor: Yamaha YTS 23
Mouthpiece: Otto link tone edge |
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shakuhachi Veteran Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2012 Posts: 195
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Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2021 12:53 am Post subject: physics and brass playing |
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HERMOKIWI:
Quote: | During circular breathing the air and air pressure in the oral cavity is completely disconnected from the air and air pressure in the lungs. Therefore, during circular breathing it would be physically impossible for the air in the oral cavity to flow into the lungs. |
....now please go ahead: we discussed the influence of air flow and pressure in the oral capacity possibly encreasing air pressure of the lungs while manipulating the oral capacity with the tongue and making the lip tissue of the smaller arperture being able to pulse faster - you neglected this influence in the normal blowing situation through an open arperture arguing the additional pressure would fall back in the lungs instead going forward to the arperture.
Now you stated in curcular breathing the lungs are disconnected from the oral capacity....in which direction does the oral pressure go now? To the opening, the aperture? Is the air pressure in the oral capacity higher or lower than in the lungs in this situation?
I am nat asking to really get some answer from you. I am asking to show, that even physics could not describe exactly the mystery of blowing a brass instrument until now.
Even the vibrating of the lips is discussed controversal: do they close each cycle of vibration or only pulse by narrowing and widening the aperture, or do they vibrate vertically or horiozontaly? They make movies about the movement of the lips in the mouthpiece, to make evidence - I know.
Of course buzzing with the lips will will periodically close the lips to get a sound but buzzing a mouthpiece, a leadpipe or the horn seem to work in another way - that is why I am not an advocate of lip buzzing. Here the next myth comes into play: you blow without a buzz into the mpc an connect the horn - a sound appears. A lot of minds argue: this is because now the addedd system closes the aperture periodically and it is done because of oscillating pressures before and behind the aperture. Resonance is a complex thing.
Should I continue.....no! I have studied a lot and I was a software engineer - but I not studied physics. And there are physics out there not playing trumpet but trying to understand what is going on.
Physics are fine and give a lot of answers...but I am still waiting for a complete answer how blowing a brass instrument really works scientifical.
Myths can be told even with scientifc attitude. The human mind is busy in construction answers which tell him he got answers and control over nature - in the long run hopless. But thinking is fun of course - one can do competions - but reality is another thing.
Until then I trust in my personal experience.... |
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581
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Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2021 2:14 am Post subject: Re: physics and brass playing |
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shakuhachi wrote: | HERMOKIWI:
Quote: | During circular breathing the air and air pressure in the oral cavity is completely disconnected from the air and air pressure in the lungs. Therefore, during circular breathing it would be physically impossible for the air in the oral cavity to flow into the lungs. |
....now please go ahead: we discussed the influence of air flow and pressure in the oral capacity possibly encreasing air pressure of the lungs while manipulating the oral capacity with the tongue and making the lip tissue of the smaller arperture being able to pulse faster - you neglected this influence in the normal blowing situation through an open arperture arguing the additional pressure would fall back in the lungs instead going forward to the arperture.
Now you stated in curcular breathing the lungs are disconnected from the oral capacity....in which direction does the oral pressure go now? To the opening, the aperture? Is the air pressure in the oral capacity higher or lower than in the lungs in this situation. |
If tongue movement increased the air pressure in the oral cavity beyond the air pressure provided by the lungs when the two systems are connected then the increased air pressure in the oral cavity would reverse the airflow toward the lungs. Factually, however, tongue movement does not increase the air pressure in the oral cavity beyond the air pressure provided by the lungs when the two systems are connected, so we do not experience a reversal of the airflow toward the lungs.
I don't know how I could make that any more clear to you.
In circular breathing, when the oral cavity is disconnected from the lungs then the air pressure in the oral cavity stays in the oral cavity and, if the aperture is open, the airflow is directed by that pressure to the aperture. When the systems are disconnected the lungs are not providing any air pressure to the oral cavity.
I don't know how I could make that any more clear to you either.
The truth of it doesn't depend on you believing it. You can trust your personal experience all you want. However, your personal experience cannot undo the laws of physics. If you don't understand it at this point I suggest you do some independent research. _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3298 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2021 4:06 am Post subject: Re: physics and brass playing |
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shakuhachi wrote: |
....now please go ahead: we discussed the influence of air flow and pressure in the oral capacity possibly encreasing air pressure of the lungs while manipulating the oral capacity with the tongue and making the lip tissue of the smaller arperture being able to pulse faster - you neglected this influence in the normal blowing situation through an open arperture arguing the additional pressure would fall back in the lungs instead going forward to the arperture.
...
Even the vibrating of the lips is discussed controversal: do they close each cycle of vibration or only pulse by narrowing and widening the aperture, or do they vibrate vertically or horiozontaly? ... |
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I agree with HERMOKIWI that in an 'open system' (not circular breathing) the air pressure in the oral cavity is basically the same as air pressure in the lungs - any small change in air pressure in one region is very quickly equalized in the entire open system.
What you say about
"manipulating the oral capacity with the tongue and making the lip tissue of the smaller arperture being able to pulse faster"
is (I believe) NOT due to the oral capacity alone being manipulated, but is due to the associated changes to the lip aperture that RESULT from manipulating the tongue.
And YES, the vibration/pulsation of the lips while playing does not seem to be fully understood. It appears to me that there is a continuous (never completely stopping) flow of air through the aperture - but the pressure level, frequency of pressure changes, and the amount of air flow varies depending on the pitch being played and its loudness.
I think that everyone agrees that 'sound' results from quickly changing air pressure. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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mm55 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Jul 2013 Posts: 1412
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Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2021 9:21 am Post subject: Re: physics and brass playing |
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shakuhachi wrote: | ....in which direction does the oral pressure go now? To the opening, the aperture? |
Pressure does not have a direction. It's a scalar quantity, not a vector. _________________ '75 Bach Strad 180ML/37
'79 King Silver Flair
'07 Flip Oakes Wild Thing
'42 Selmer US
'90 Yamaha YTR6450S(C)
'12 Eastman ETR-540S (D/Eb)
'10 Carol CPT-300LR pkt
'89 Yamaha YCR2330S crnt
'13 CarolBrass CFL-6200-GSS-BG flg
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3298 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2021 11:09 am Post subject: Re: physics and brass playing |
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shakuhachi wrote: |
Now you stated in curcular breathing the lungs are disconnected from the oral capacity....in which direction does the oral pressure go now? To the opening, the aperture? Is the air pressure in the oral capacity higher or lower than in the lungs in this situation. ... |
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in which direction does the oral pressure go - in a 'closed container' (oral cavity for circular breathing) the pressure is always assumed to exert force in a direction that is perpendicular to the plane (geometry term) of the boundary surface. And the pressure is exerted equally on the entire boundary surface - all locations on the boundary surface experience the same pressure. Air FLOW will occur out of a 'higher pressure region' into a 'lower pressure region' (such as the aperture opening).
Is the air pressure in the oral capacity higher or lower than in the lungs -
During the 'nose inhale' portion of circular breathing, the 2 regions (oral and lungs) are sealed from each other. So the pressure in 1 region does not affect the other - they act independently of each other.
When the passage between the lungs and oral capacity is opened, the air will flow from the region of higher pressure into the region of lower pressure - usually from the lungs into the oral capacity. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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dizzyforpresident New Member
Joined: 08 Mar 2021 Posts: 6
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Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2021 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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I had to make an account just to say if you lot spent your time practicing instead of typing out this pointless rubbish you wouldn't need to be having this discussion. |
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steve0930 Veteran Member
Joined: 07 May 2018 Posts: 191
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Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2021 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Dizzy
Quote: | I had to make an account just to say if you lot spent your time practicing instead of typing out this pointless rubbish you wouldn't need to be having this discussion |
Thanks for posting...of course your reply begs the question.."why then read this at all?" But that would be a cheap shot on my behalf because I think it's great when we have this feel of a living forum which depends on iconoclasts like yourself (is that the right word?!). But what I m more interested in is what should we discuss...can you kick start start your own thread. I was thinking of one:"long tones..should I start?" But came to conclusion a bit boring. I'm sure you could do better.?
Hope you post again soon
Stay safe Steve in Helsinki
Ps Feeling myself a bit Dizzy, Dizzy..Women's Day today and my wife is Russian so big deal..sparkling and red wine enjoyed and now smokey whisky as Ljuba sleeps! _________________ My Number 1 supporter
http://langdons.com/images/langdon-image.jpg |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3298 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2021 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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steve0930 wrote: | ... iconoclasts ... (is that the right word?!).
...
my wife is Russian so big deal..sparkling and red wine enjoyed and now smokey whisky as Ljuba sleeps! |
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Yes, good word (I asked MY wife)
icon - image
clast - break
Nostrovia "Na Zdorovie"
Jay _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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dizzyforpresident New Member
Joined: 08 Mar 2021 Posts: 6
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Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2021 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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I realise reading it back that my comment does come across as rude.
However I can't help but feel that this detailed discussion of the physics of oral cavities and tongue pressure etc. are so irrelevant to actual playing. Particularly for the self-described amateur players in this thread.
I just feel like shaking them and telling them to stop worrying about the minutiae and spend the time working on the basics. |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3298 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2021 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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Many of the discussions here are PRACTICE. We are learning and practicing how to ask and answer questions that are related to 'trumpet concerns'. With the goal of providing / receiving 'wanted', 'accurate', and 'helpful' information. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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trumpetteacher1 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 3404 Location: Garland, Texas
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Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2021 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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dizzyforpresident wrote: | I had to make an account just to say if you lot spent your time practicing instead of typing out this pointless rubbish you wouldn't need to be having this discussion. |
Since TH was started, one thing had consistently been true - one person's "rubbish" is another's topic of interest. Those who fail to understand this usually don't last here too long. They get upset that others here don't think exactly as they do.
If a discussion falls within TH guidelines, yet you have a strong negative emotional reaction to what is being said, it is sometimes better to just move on to a different topic. If you have to disagree, then consider offering evidence that proves your point, rather than hurling disparaging comments.
Jeff |
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Rod Haney Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2015 Posts: 937
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Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 10:37 am Post subject: |
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SteveDurand wrote: | Eliot wrote: | Hi again Steve,
Re
Upstream setting
My understanding atm is that the lip setting S&C recommend will result in an upstream air movement. Costello's diagram on p92 of the pdf file I've downloaded (Part II, The Stevens - Costello Triple C Embouchure Technique) is pretty clear, but may well be an exaggerated description and/or I may be misunderstanding S&C. Once again though, it seems to boil down to "what works for you." |
I'm using the definition of upstream as identified by Reinhardt. Studies have found that the direction of the airstream is determined by the proportion of upper lip vs lower lip in the mouthpiece. Regardless of the picture in the S-C book, if you put more top lip in the cup you have a downstream embouchure.
One of my key discoveries when I was working it out was that it worked better for me if I put more top lip in the cup.
Eliot wrote: |
Tongue arch & buccal cavity as a closed system
Question: Does not the air being expelled from the lungs prevent reverse airflow down both the gullet and the windpipe? Effectively, that air pressure arising from the lungs' expulsion would then, for practical purposes and at that moment in time, seal the 'rear-end' of the system? |
If the movement of the tongue could somehow create more pressure than that supplied by the lungs then it would push the air back into the lungs and they would expand slightly. The system can only generate as much pressure as it weakest part. The tongue cannot create more pressure in the system than the lungs can provide.
Another thought about the tongue: Your tongue is always in your mouth and I think that it will always displace the same volume. So moving it up and forward will not create smaller Buccal cavity. Just a differently shaped one.
Thanks for the discussion. I enjoy it.
Steve |
I’m not sure how exactly this relates but it is something i notice. Shew gave me an exercise where i tongue thru teeth to build strength (his words) and muscle memory (that’s my thought). One thing I have noticed as I was able to get good staccato at g above staff when doing this was that higher notes i had became easier and were crisper. I can now do it to hi c pretty easily.
This relates to the tongue question. When I try to hit notes I’m not yet comfortable with it helps to use this tongue thru teeth and pop my lip with the sudden air pressure. This leads me to think (sometimes troublesome) that tongue can help when you can get by with this in the musical setting. I can pop low c, middle, high, and hit (not use) a double when using the tongue thru teeth, but can only play a good continuous scale to hi g. Does this have any usefulness in training emb.?
Rod |
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Rod Haney Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2015 Posts: 937
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Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 10:54 am Post subject: |
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dizzyforpresident wrote: | I had to make an account just to say if you lot spent your time practicing instead of typing out this pointless rubbish you wouldn't need to be having this discussion. |
Spend time practicing correctly in a way that builds. That’s why people use the forum is so they can learn new approaches, to me this is worthwhile. If i lived in LA or NY i would have access to in person instruction and exposure, I live in WV and the only real places to obtain good instruction are at the 2 major colleges in state, and then you are captive to their method. I have looked and no Steven’s Costello teachers around here. So I either Skype or read. I practice 3-4 hrs daily but I’m retired and who would I play with now when the best search for work. I understand your point about practicing - but the way it was framed sounded like just keep doing what you’ve always done but do more of it and you will solve all your problems. Doesn’t work for me
Rod |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3298 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 10:56 am Post subject: |
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Rod Haney wrote: | ... an exercise where i tongue thru teeth to build strength (his words) and muscle memory (that’s my thought). ... |
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Can you explain a little more about 'tongue thru teeth'?
Is the actual goal to have the tongue make contact with the lower edge of the upper teeth? And what about tongue contact with lower teeth?
Or is it more a matter of not prohibiting the tip of the tongue from going beyond the backside of the teeth - i.e. using a tongue motion that might cause the tongue to go thru the teeth.
And is that supposed to be a technique to use while actually playing, or is it a 'training exercise'. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Rod Haney Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2015 Posts: 937
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Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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No tongue thru teeth and lip like spitting a seed. Rod |
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