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D above double C


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number juan
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:05 pm    Post subject: D above double C Reply with quote

So I'm currently a college student, and have been playing for quite some time now, never needing more range than I already had. However though, that hasn't stopped me from trying to expand my range even more just for the fun of it.
I know it's unnecessary, but it's fun, and I make sure not to push it to the point of hurting other aspects of my playing.

So my question is, why can't I slot a D above double C?
I can pretty normally play a double C, on good days I'll slot Es
But I just can't seem to slot a double D, and have no idea why

So it's nothing important, I've never had to play that high in a piece before and don't expect to anytime soon, as I'm normally only needing Gs and occasional As, but it's just confusing to me.
So if anyone has any ideas as to why it won't slot, I'm all ears to hear any of yalls thoughts
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Richard III
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Give us a YouTube of your playing and we'll figure it out.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In that range, try using each of the fingering combinations - maybe one will work.
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falado
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, A+ for trying alternate fingerings. I took a lesson with Roger Ingram a few years ago and I noted he was playing his G above high C as 1&3. He said it slotted better for him. I noticed on my own playing that simply moving the trumpet slightly up, down, or away can make the next note up pop out so check your horn/hand position while playing those notes. I discovered this by watching a James Morrison video on YouTube. Also, could be a mouthpiece gap issue.
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Jerry
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Could it be the physics of the specific trumpet you're playing?
Maybe the bell / lead pipe can't slot that note.
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SteveDurand
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is no slot for a D above double C.

Consider this chart.



This is a chart of trumpet acoustic impedance. The high points are where the slots are.

The highest really good slot is high C (number 8 on the chart), As you can see, the slot for the D is much weaker and it just drops off from there. Once you get beyond a G there are really no slots at all. This is because at that wavelength the standing wave no longer exists and the trumpet is simply acting as a megaphone for what your lips are doing.

The D above double C is at a frequency of 2,093 hertz

Any issues with things like valve alignment or mouthpiece gap would manifest themselves at a much lower point than this.

So, the only slots up in this range are the ones you make yourself by controlling the vibration of your lips. I would suggest you just keep practicing until you get the feel for that particular note.

Steve
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SteveDurand wrote:
There is no slot for a D above double C.

Consider this chart.


...

-------------------------
That chart is the harmonics when played using no valves. There are similar charts for the other valve combinations, and some other combination might give better results (even without there being a usable harmonic).
But yes, the harmonics in the extreme high range are very near each other, and are not particularly strong.

Note: for Bb trumpet the 2nd harmonic corresponds to written middle C (played no-valves). As valves are added, the tubing length gets longer and the harmonics are moved to lower pitches.
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TrpPro
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
In that range, try using each of the fingering combinations - maybe one will work.

Curious. Is that usually what works for you in that range?

It's been my experience that any valve combination will pretty much work for any notes above G over high C (maybe G# over high C). It has also been my experience that often I will find the shortest tubing to be the easiest one to use, especially when moving around to different notes in that range. This often translates, for me, to playing everything open. Any kind of moving part. All open. Moving around in that extreme range can be very delicately balanced for me and not changing tube length seems to reduce the chances of upsetting the apple cart.

To each their own but you still have to be able to play the pitches up there before any kind of decisions can be made about what is or isn't the best way to do it.
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SteveDurand
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jay,
Adding length to the instrument by pressing down the valves will shift the slots to the left. It just exacerbates the issue. No combination of valves will help you when you are up that high.

The only way to move the slots to the right is to shorten the instrument. You would be able to slot the double D on a piccolo trumpet.

While you can theoretically plot out the harmonics ad infinitum, in the real world once the standing wave breaks down you don't have them anymore for practical purposes. Hence, the flatline on the chart after you get past about a high G.

Steve
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falado
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi again, here’s an alternative. I believe I heard somewhere that Flip Oake’s Wild Thing Trumpets are made to produce a standing wave to D above high C. If you can find one, you might want to give it a try. I had a WT some years ago and when practicing I was actually able to practice to the D above DHC. I used that horn to play lead and do shows, but have gone back to my Stomvi VRII, but only because, for me, the Stomvi is more efficient. Since COVID-19 my show and lead gigs have gone. I did really like the sound of the WT, but in my old age like efficiency. I’m now concentrating more on brass gigs, some R&B gigs in the near future and playing blues guitar. The guitar doesn’t hurt the lips and I can see and play the high notes on the fretboard.

Dave
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theslawdawg
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

......
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dstpt
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, threads like these seem that they might be best answered by those with experience in the extreme register. Could be wrong. I posted a recording on a TH thread several months ago, playing a G major scale on Bb tpt from low G to DHD and then back down, followed by a G major arpeggio up to G above high C all in one breath...just to show that I'd been working on transitions...BUT I certainly am not a powerhouse lead player. I do know lead players who use a variety of fingerings once they're above that G, and some of their choices have been surprising...and powerful.

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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

theslawdawg wrote:
JayKosta wrote:
In that range, try using each of the fingering combinations - maybe one will work.


I might be mistaken but didn't you say a few weeks ago your range is only about a high C/D?

Sometimes it's okay to skip a thread and sit one out. They'll always be another to add to the post count.


Jay's comment is a valid suggestion whether Jay can play in that range or not and, unlike your comment, his comment contributes to the discussion.
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theslawdawg
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

........
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Last edited by theslawdawg on Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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SteveDurand
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is a sample of a double D with different fingerings.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dPJiPSsVQzdYDgty1eeePZuzZ4M93Vwj/view?usp=sharing

It's not the steadiest pitch but any wavering seems unrelated to changes in fingerings.

Steve
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SteveDurand wrote:
...
It's not the steadiest pitch but any wavering seems unrelated to changes in fingerings. ...

--------------------------------
As mentioned earlier - the difficulty at that pitch might be due to some sort of mechanical anomaly (bump, gap, step, port alignment, etc.) at the location in the tubing where the pitch pressure point is most vulnerable.
The use of different fingering does not change how or where the pitch waves move through the tubing, only what harmonic is used to produce the pitch.

And of course, it could be due to the player having difficultly producing a steady pitch.
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The 'next note' is the most important one.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SteveDurand wrote:
Jay,
Adding length to the instrument by pressing down the valves will shift the slots to the left. It just exacerbates the issue. No combination of valves will help you when you are up that high.

The only way to move the slots to the right is to shorten the instrument. ...

--------------------------------------
Steve, you're right about the harmonics moving to the left when using the valves, that's why I wrote -
"Note: for Bb trumpet the 2nd harmonic corresponds to written middle C (played no-valves). As valves are added, the tubing length gets longer and the harmonics are moved to lower pitches."

The idea of using different valves was that the precise pitch produced by using different valves can change slightly. Such as when playing 'in staff G' 1-3 versus open, or playing 'in staff C' as 2-3 versus open.
And perhaps the slight change in produced pitch could give a better sounding note.
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The 'next note' is the most important one.
Don't take a '20 minute mouthpiece' to a 1 hour session.
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SteveDurand
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jay,
I guess I'll try one last time to make my point.

Yes, different valve combinations affect where the slot is and can help zero in on even a weak slot. This applies up to about the G or A above high C depending on the shape of the bell of the horn.

But, The D that the OP is talking about is in a completely different realm. It is beyond the level where you have a standing wave to support any slots anymore. There are no slots up there. None, zilch, zip nada. The chart that I posted illustrates this very well.

Different valve combinations don't mean a thing at those frequencies.

The ability to lock onto any note up there is dependent on the players ability to control their embouchure. So my advice to the OP is to just keep working on that note. It will come around.

Of course the OP is certainly welcome, and should, try anything that they think can help. But, based on my experience, different valve combos are not going to be the answer.

Steve
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SteveDurand wrote:
...
The ability to lock onto any note up there is dependent on the players ability to control their embouchure. So my advice to the OP is to just keep working on that note. It will come around.

Of course the OP is certainly welcome, and should, try anything that they think can help. But, based on my experience, different valve combos are not going to be the answer.

Steve

------------------------------
no argument from me about that.
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The 'next note' is the most important one.
Don't take a '20 minute mouthpiece' to a 1 hour session.
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JonathanM
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’m not a super range guy, but I once asked a retired pro about a note above high C I simply could not get on one horn (a great horn, too). His response completely silenced me.
‘Maybe there isn’t an —— (the particular note) on that horn’. He was quite serious.
It’s been said differently above, but the thought process is the same, I think; gap issues and improper valve settings do make some notes inordinately hard to find on some horns. I imagine that the closer we are to our range limit, the more horn imperfections hinder our upward reach.
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