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Pattern Recognition - Arban's etudes and studies



 
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 7:02 am    Post subject: Pattern Recognition - Arban's etudes and studies Reply with quote

I'm curious about how different players 'learn' to play the various interval progressions and chord changes in some of the Arban's material.

Specifically the studies about: Chords of the dominant 7th, Chords of the Diminished 7th, and Characteristic Studies (using #1 as an example).

When I practice those items, it's all that I can do to just 'read the notes' one-at-a-time (and keep track of the accidentals), and play the right notes in some semblance of proper rhythm.

Do any of you have the ability to 'see' the pattern of a group of notes, and be able to 'just play them' - for example a pattern group of 4 or 8 notes at a time?

I think that many players can see and recognize rhythm patterns and play them without 'figuring-out the subdivision'. Such as triplets, dotted 1/8 - 1/16, etc. But what about patterns of moving notes, and interval patterns?

And a somewhat related question - are those Arban's items intended to train the player to learn to recognize and play 'patterns'?
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Danbassin
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In short - yes!

The neurological process of 'chunking' information is at the heart of becoming musically fluent, and I think the 'pattern recognition' you're asking about is what this is all about. The equally short answer to the question you didn't ask, "How do I get to this level of musical (trumpet playing) fluency?" is that you're already in the process of getting there: moving from note-to-note reading to that somewhat zoomed-out view of patterns - like the dominant seventh arpeggio - comes from literally years and years of working through those notes to get at the patterns. As we trumpeters have a very limited set of fingerings for all the notes required of us in the western classical tradition, there is a step in the reading process where the note/pattern recognition also has to map onto our muscle memory (right hand fingerings, tongue arch/corner/air speed) in order to translate what we know we see to what someone else can hear as the proof.

Separate from this are questions of how Slow Practice (the Gekker book of the same title is wonderful!) and pushing our technique for virtuosity (speed and accuracy) relate in your individual practice, and usually a teacher or trusted colleague are the best objective measures for all of that. That you're working on the Arban book means you're already doing the right work/fighting the good fight. If you haven't already added Charlier and Top Tones into the mix, those are great places to continue the start. The Sachse book, with all its challenging transpositions, is another key part to the pattern recognition work for us trumpeters - online you can find references to Bill Vacchiano's special set of transpositions he'd add to the book for advancing students.

Happy practicing!
-DB
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're having trouble with the Arban's because you are paralyzed by analysis.
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kevin_soda
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Watch these as often as necessary.

https://youtu.be/MVs2G60-ilo

https://youtu.be/paMT6JGEd94

The second video speaks most directly to your question but the first is just as valuable and probably a critical first step. "Symbols for sound."
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kevin_soda wrote:
Watch these as often as necessary.

https://youtu.be/MVs2G60-ilo

https://youtu.be/paMT6JGEd94

The second video speaks most directly to your question but the first is just as valuable and probably a critical first step. "Symbols for sound."

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Skanker
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the video links Kevin, I enjoyed watching
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whenever I regularly work on exercises that are scale or chord-based I inevitably internalize the scale or chord Which really helps when grinding the exercise out in all keys.

I've not done enough of the right type of exercise to begin to recognize progressions but I'd sure like to. I'd expect to find that mostly in jazz studies.

If I want to work on my reading I like to sight-read a book of etudes.
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JoseLindE4
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my mind, this is a general technique issue. This is why you practice technical studies. Regardless of style or whether improvised or read, technique is building a musical vocabulary.

1. Slowly sing, play, and repeat until death. Music begins in hearing in the mind’s ear. Scales and arpeggios are ultimately ear training exercises more than finger drills, although the fingers matter.

2. Memorize common patterns on various chords and scales in all keys. The common patterns are easily accessible in whatever music is currently sitting on your stand. One example is all of the variations on how you could play Clarke 2. This matters even more to players who don’t improvise very much since the connection between the imagination and the horn is less obvious. There are always new patterns to find.

3. Make up patterns on scales and arpeggios and work them out by ear in all keys. Think sound more than what buttons to press down, but obviously make sure to press down the right buttons. You can write them down later, but begin with the ear.

4. Turn on a metronome and read etudes. Make them musical.

5. Read along with recordings. Make music. Also play along by ear with recordings.

6. Practice solfege (Do, Re, Mi and a rhythmic counting system). Sight singing makes you a better player. You can never get too good at this.

7. Practice the boring stuff in Clarke/Arban. Make it musical and see patterns.

8. Learn to love the metronome. It’s your lie detector.
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Slowly sing, play, and repeat until death. Music begins in hearing in the mind’s ear. Scales and arpeggios are ultimately ear training exercises more than finger drills, although the fingers matter.
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PH
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Musical notation is a code. When a composer writes music they encode a sound. When we read music we decode the written music back into sound. We learn to see the sound. When we read written language we decode the symbols back into words, sentences, phrases, thoughts. We see the sound of the word and instantly know it’s pronunciation, how to make the word audible, it’s meanings, and myriad other things. The same must become true of reading music. It’s a lifelong quest that is never done.

Listen to great models. See the sound on the page. Sing it out loud with your voice. Sing it in your imagination (aka audiation). Play it on our instrument. Repeat incessantly until you don’t have to think about it and just do it.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for all the comments, suggestions, and the video links.

I think that PH has described my specific concern -

PH wrote:
... When we read written language we decode the symbols back into words, sentences, phrases, thoughts. We see the sound of the word and instantly know it’s pronunciation, how to make the word audible, it’s meanings, and myriad other things. The same must become true of reading music. It’s a lifelong quest that is never done. ...


When I see an unusual pattern (e.g. a new 4 note arpeggio or sequence) I am not always able to immediately 'see the sound of the word' - I need to often do it syllable-by-syllable (note-by-note). Yes some are much easier than others, such as recognizing a pattern that uses all the same fingering.

An example of what gives me trouble is Arban's Characteristic Studies #1 - measure 7. The accidentals are not part of an easily recognized pattern and I have the 'see' and 'respond' to them note-by-note.

I guess it is primarily a matter of practice and hopefully obtaining the 'automatic response' of seeing the pattern and not having to 'see and respond' in a step by step manner. Or perhaps quicker seeing and responding.

edited to use the word 'respond' instead of 'think' - I respond pretty well to most accidentals - except for things such as double #, B#, Cb, ...
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
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JoseLindE4
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the given example, it's just a C major triad alternating with B diminished 7 chords -- the tension of the B dim7 resolving to C over and over until the B dim7 to C becomes a G7 to C two bars before the fine. There are some non-chord tones, but they're best thought of in their relation to the chord tones.

I'd add that learning to play a little bit of piano -- even just figuring out chords and scales -- does wonders for visualizing the shapes and patterns of music.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JoseLindE4 wrote:
For the given example, it's just a C major triad alternating with B diminished 7 chords -- ...

------------------------------------------
Thanks,

That goes along with the introduction comment that the studies are "the embodiment of the various instructions contained in this volume".

I'll devote more practice time to the 'various instructions' and not so much to the Studies themself.
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
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PH
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
Thank you for all the comments, suggestions, and the video links.

I think that PH has described my specific concern -

PH wrote:
... When we read written language we decode the symbols back into words, sentences, phrases, thoughts. We see the sound of the word and instantly know it’s pronunciation, how to make the word audible, it’s meanings, and myriad other things. The same must become true of reading music. It’s a lifelong quest that is never done. ...


When I see an unusual pattern (e.g. a new 4 note arpeggio or sequence) I am not always able to immediately 'see the sound of the word' - I need to often do it syllable-by-syllable (note-by-note). Yes some are much easier than others, such as recognizing a pattern that uses all the same fingering.

An example of what gives me trouble is Arban's Characteristic Studies #1 - measure 7. The accidentals are not part of an easily recognized pattern and I have the 'see' and 'respond' to them note-by-note.

I guess it is primarily a matter of practice and hopefully obtaining the 'automatic response' of seeing the pattern and not having to 'see and respond' in a step by step manner. Or perhaps quicker seeing and responding.

edited to use the word 'respond' instead of 'think' - I respond pretty well to most accidentals - except for things such as double #, B#, Cb, ...


Learn to sing every interval and learn to clap every rhythm. Eventually you recognize the patterns instantly without constant thought. It's not unlike the theory of phonics.
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kevin_soda
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PH wrote:
JayKosta wrote:
Thank you for all the comments, suggestions, and the video links.

I think that PH has described my specific concern -

PH wrote:
... When we read written language we decode the symbols back into words, sentences, phrases, thoughts. We see the sound of the word and instantly know it’s pronunciation, how to make the word audible, it’s meanings, and myriad other things. The same must become true of reading music. It’s a lifelong quest that is never done. ...


When I see an unusual pattern (e.g. a new 4 note arpeggio or sequence) I am not always able to immediately 'see the sound of the word' - I need to often do it syllable-by-syllable (note-by-note). Yes some are much easier than others, such as recognizing a pattern that uses all the same fingering.

An example of what gives me trouble is Arban's Characteristic Studies #1 - measure 7. The accidentals are not part of an easily recognized pattern and I have the 'see' and 'respond' to them note-by-note.

I guess it is primarily a matter of practice and hopefully obtaining the 'automatic response' of seeing the pattern and not having to 'see and respond' in a step by step manner. Or perhaps quicker seeing and responding.

edited to use the word 'respond' instead of 'think' - I respond pretty well to most accidentals - except for things such as double #, B#, Cb, ...


Learn to sing every interval and learn to clap every rhythm. Eventually you recognize the patterns instantly without constant thought. It's not unlike the theory of phonics.


Thinking of picking up a copy of "Trumpetology." Is that the best way to get your perspective without taking a lesson from you directly?
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PH
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kevin_soda wrote:
PH wrote:
JayKosta wrote:
Thank you for all the comments, suggestions, and the video links.

I think that PH has described my specific concern -

PH wrote:
... When we read written language we decode the symbols back into words, sentences, phrases, thoughts. We see the sound of the word and instantly know it’s pronunciation, how to make the word audible, it’s meanings, and myriad other things. The same must become true of reading music. It’s a lifelong quest that is never done. ...


When I see an unusual pattern (e.g. a new 4 note arpeggio or sequence) I am not always able to immediately 'see the sound of the word' - I need to often do it syllable-by-syllable (note-by-note). Yes some are much easier than others, such as recognizing a pattern that uses all the same fingering.

An example of what gives me trouble is Arban's Characteristic Studies #1 - measure 7. The accidentals are not part of an easily recognized pattern and I have the 'see' and 'respond' to them note-by-note.

I guess it is primarily a matter of practice and hopefully obtaining the 'automatic response' of seeing the pattern and not having to 'see and respond' in a step by step manner. Or perhaps quicker seeing and responding.

edited to use the word 'respond' instead of 'think' - I respond pretty well to most accidentals - except for things such as double #, B#, Cb, ...


Learn to sing every interval and learn to clap every rhythm. Eventually you recognize the patterns instantly without constant thought. It's not unlike the theory of phonics.


Thinking of picking up a copy of "Trumpetology." Is that the best way to get your perspective without taking a lesson from you directly?


Not sure. It's pretty informative, but it's mostly an active book, not a ton of text. The text in my Technical Studies for the Modern Trumpet is more extensive and I still think it is pretty good, although it is 40 years old.

Reading things here on TH in the Caruso and Adam forums are also probably good. But the best thing would be to spend some time hanging out.
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drboogenbroom
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would suggest anyone interested in learning about learning music take a look at "Learning Sequences in Music" by Edwin Gordon.

It is not a casual read, but I have found it to be one of the most accurate and comprehensive (as it relates to my experience as a teacher and musician) frame works for understanding how people do and do not learn music, and by extension why some methodologies "do what they do," for better and worse.

What Mr. Harbison has been explaining makes perfect sense in the context of this frame work.



Kevin
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rmch
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What could also be helpful specifically regarding Arban's chord studies is sit down at the piano (or any keyboard, or even guitar for that matter) and play the arpeggios as block chords. Learn to recognize them in other music that you play and how they function. Then when you're sight-reading different material in different groups, you can see a melody like F-D-B-G and just see it as G Dominant chord. Understanding harmony more broadly can help you in a lot of ways. A lot of the foundational trumpet books we all love were written in the 19th Century or the early 20th Century; few of them are harmonically on the cutting edge of their times, so if you develop an understanding of Late-Classical/Romantic Era harmony, you'll be able to tackle most of the edutes from our favorite books with more ease. It can reach a point where even when you're sight-reading an etude, you can pretty accurately guess what's going to happen next based on the harmony and voice leading. As a side benefit, familiarizing yourself with this kind of harmony will help you navigate A TON of the styles of music we're regularly asked to play in. It's the material most classical music pre-1900 is working with, which then lays a foundation for so many other styles: marches, polka, tango, merengue, choro, a lot of pop music pre-1960. It's been super helpful for me in pre-bebop jazz, too, especially 1920's small group stuff, like improvising 2nd cornet parts in King Oliver's repertoire the way Louis used to - add the blues into the harmonic mix, and you're all set to play stuff like this:

Link

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