• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

Leadpipe Venturi Catalog


Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Klastos
Regular Member


Joined: 15 Aug 2004
Posts: 51

PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2021 1:15 am    Post subject: Leadpipe Venturi Catalog Reply with quote

In response to the recent discussion regarding the exceptionally small leadpipe venturi of the Selmer Chorus 80J, I thought I would start a thread where we can compile venturi measurements from a variety of instruments. Here's my current data:

Instrument - notes............................Venturi (in.)

Bb trumpet:

Bach 25 - L Bore 1520xx....................0.346
Bach 25 - Used.................................0.351
Bach 25 - new, special order...............0.344
Bach 25 - "Reconditioned" eBay...........0.344
Bach 25 - Star LP on 37 #374xx.........0.346
Bach 43 - "Reconditioned" eBay..........0.343
Benge 3X+ 9601xx...........................0.345
Besson Brevete (Kanstul 32xx)...........0.330
Calicchio 2 - made in 2009.................0.348
Calicchio 9 #17xx.............................0.350
Callet Jazz #63xx..............................0.352
Kanstul CG.......................................0.361
Marcinkiewicz CG 468 #13xx..............0.359
Marcinkiewicz 5 #43x........................0.344
MK 525 #1......................................0.345
MK 525 #2......................................0.346
Olds Ambassador 3971xx..................0.351
Olds Recording 2428xx......................0.342
Selmer 80J 913xx............................ 0.316

C trumpet:

Bach 25M........................................0.351
Bach Chicago C 6841xx.....................0.344
Yamaha Malone MC1 (Gen II).............0.346

Cornet:

Olds Mendez Cornet 5543xx..............0.344

It's interesting to see the variation within one model, as well as the vastly different dimensions of distinct designs. I find the Selmer Chorus 80J, with its tiny 0.316" venturi to have a very balanced response, thanks to dimensions elsewhere in the instrument, but the difference between a Bach 25 leadpipe with a 0.346" venturi (what I think of as the "correct" dimension) and one undersized by only two thousandths at 0.344" – compared on the same instrument – is dramatic.

In fact, until I played the 80J, I really thought that a venturi in the vicinity of 0.346" was the only thing that worked for me on Bb. Larger than that, I found instruments to lack brilliance, except at high dynamic levels, and smaller than that the instrument felt "zippy," being quick to brightness and stuffy at higher dynamic levels. For typical instruments (at least, most of those in the list above) my balance point for resistance depended on the 0.346-ish venturi for optimal response. And yet, the Chorus 80J really feels comfortable to me at 0.316", thanks to its very different overall design.

One more note about the 80J leadpipe: of those examples listed above, the 80J has a leadpipe most similar in shape to the UMI Benge 3X+ and Marcinkiewicz CG 468, but much smaller in bore throughout. That is to say, they share a similar taper profile, but the CG is the largest in volume, followed by the Benge and then the Selmer. The Marcinkiewicz CG, I believe, is made with Selmer's CG mandrel, derived from the Besson Meha, and of course the Benge owes its design to a similar heritage. It would seem there is a family resemblance amongst the French leadpipes.

Please add your own measurements, assuming you have a fair amount of confidence in the their accuracy.

(BTW, if anyone knows how to make nicely formatted columns in a post, please let me know.)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
HERMOKIWI
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2008
Posts: 2578

PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2021 2:19 am    Post subject: Re: Leadpipe Venturi Catalog Reply with quote

Klastos wrote:
And yet, the Chorus 80J really feels comfortable to me at 0.316", thanks to its very different overall design


What is different about its overall design?
_________________
HERMOKIWI
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
bebop
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 654
Location: St Johnsbury Vermont

PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2021 3:33 am    Post subject: Leadpipe Venturi Reply with quote

Anyone know the size of the Adams A1gen 1 leadpipe. It seems to be very tight.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ronnman
Veteran Member


Joined: 09 Aug 2019
Posts: 404
Location: SE Louisiana

PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2021 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Klastos - Interesting comparisons. Here is a few more vintage horns.
Ron

LeBlanc Al Hirt .468 Bore 167xx.............0.358
Martin Committee .453 Bore 188xxx.......0.345
Selmer Signet .455 Bore 666xx..............0.336
_________________
Martin Committee #2 1954
Leblanc “Al Hirt” Model 1966
Olds Custom Crafted Ultra Sonic 1974
Edwards Gen II 2014
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bethmike
Veteran Member


Joined: 21 Jan 2020
Posts: 192
Location: NW of ORD

PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2021 5:40 am    Post subject: Leadpipe venturi sizes Reply with quote

Does anyone know the venturi on a Kanstul 1001?
_________________
Bach190ML43
Kanstul 1001
Bach NY7
Yamaha 631 Flugel
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Yamahaguy
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 09 Dec 2004
Posts: 3992

PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2021 6:25 am    Post subject: Re: Leadpipe Venturi Catalog Reply with quote

Klastos wrote:
Marcinkiewicz 5 #43x........................0.344

The Marcinkiewicz CG, I believe, is made with Selmer's CG mandrel, derived from the Besson Meha, and of course the Benge owes its design to a similar heritage. It would seem there is a family resemblance amongst the French leadpipes.
Fascinating! I have 2 Vermeer 4/5's that measure .345 and .344 respectively (#27x & 42x)

And correct on the CG leadpipe, it was originally used in the rare Benge 4 bell models.

Quote:
Does anyone know the venturi on a Kanstul 1001?
Per the above information, I would 'guess' that it would be .345 because
it was supposed to be a copy of a Benge MLP 464 bore. I'll measure mine soon,
and it will be interesting to compare the Chicago, Burbank, and LA similarities and differences.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ed Kennedy
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 3187

PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2021 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I love stats...it clears the room of everyone except trumpet players.
Jens Lindeman
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
James Becker
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 2827
Location: Littleton, MA

PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2021 11:17 am    Post subject: Re: Leadpipe Venturi Catalog Reply with quote

HERMOKIWI wrote:
[quote="Klastos"

What is different about its overall design?


An extremely large bell, think Bach LT72 with fewer braces.

In addition to venturi diameters I suggest measuring receiver gap as well. The blow resistance and articulations of two pipes with the same dimensions will play entirely different when the gap increases or decreases.

I hope this is helpful.
_________________
James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com

Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
yourbrass
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 12 Jun 2011
Posts: 3619
Location: Pacifica, CA, USA

PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2021 12:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Leadpipe Venturi Catalog Reply with quote

Yamahaguy wrote:
Klastos wrote:
Marcinkiewicz 5 #43x........................0.344

The Marcinkiewicz CG, I believe, is made with Selmer's CG mandrel, derived from the Besson Meha, and of course the Benge owes its design to a similar heritage. It would seem there is a family resemblance amongst the French leadpipes.
Fascinating! I have 2 Vermeer 4/5's that measure .345 and .344 respectively (#27x & 42x)

And correct on the CG leadpipe, it was originally used in the rare Benge 4 bell models.

Quote:
Does anyone know the venturi on a Kanstul 1001?
Per the above information, I would 'guess' that it would be .345 because
it was supposed to be a copy of a Benge MLP 464 bore. I'll measure mine soon,
and it will be interesting to compare the Chicago, Burbank, and LA similarities and differences.


If Joe was copying the CG Selmer leadpipe on a mandrel he made as an accurate copy, it should be .360" - .470" i.d.
_________________
"Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
HERMOKIWI
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2008
Posts: 2578

PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2021 1:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Leadpipe Venturi Catalog Reply with quote

James Becker wrote:
HERMOKIWI wrote:
[quote="Klastos"

What is different about its overall design?


An extremely large bell, think Bach LT72 with fewer braces.

In addition to venturi diameters I suggest measuring receiver gap as well. The blow resistance and articulations of two pipes with the same dimensions will play entirely different when the gap increases or decreases.

I hope this is helpful.


I compared the bell of my Selmer Chorus 80J to the bell of my Bach 72*. Both bells are 4.75" in diameter. The bell on the Selmer has a wider throat and a slower taper from the rim than the bell on the Bach. They both have 3 bell braces (one is on the valve block) but the braces on the Bach are longer where they attach.

What specific playing advantages would be indicated/intended by combining the very small venturi of the Selmer with it's bell and bracing as described above?

What specific playing disadvantages would be indicated/expected by the combination?
_________________
HERMOKIWI


Last edited by HERMOKIWI on Sat Mar 13, 2021 6:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Christian K. Peters
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 12 Nov 2001
Posts: 1529
Location: Eugene, Oregon

PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2021 2:17 pm    Post subject: Leadpipe venturi Reply with quote

Hello all,
My 2 cents... Schilke venturis, I believe are .341 and .345 depending on model. Not dependent on bore size from what I gather.
_________________
Christian K. Peters
Schilke Loyalist since 1976
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
lipshurt
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Feb 2008
Posts: 2641
Location: vista ca

PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2021 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most of my numbers are similar to these except:
Calichio 2 that I have is 340, not 348, which is a big dif

My martin committee pipes are 353, not 345, and that is also a real big dif.

I have other numbers written down somewhere, will add them
_________________
Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com
www.youtube.com/lipshurt
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Klastos
Regular Member


Joined: 15 Aug 2004
Posts: 51

PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2021 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry for the long post, but this is an interesting subject and I want to try to respond to a number of things brought up in the thread.

Chorus 80J:

I agree that the main difference in the 80J design is the large bell volume and lighter bracing. I think the pistons are also less constricted through the ports than are Bach pistons. Receiver gap is always important, of course. In fact, my 80J had some poor machining in the receiver when I got it, preventing the mouthpiece from seating properly and altering the gap. Once fixed, it played great (except for, perhaps, E and Eb at the top of the staff being a little flatter than the average Bach).

Marcinkiewicz:

The Marcinkiewicz standard leadpipes are straight tapers numbered by their venturi size. For example, a #5 leadpipe is cut at the small end at 0.345". I should note that my measurement technique results in anything slightly below a given dimension being reported as the next 0.001" size smaller. So, my measurements of the two Marcinkiewicz leadpipes at 0.344" for the #5 and 0.359" for the CG could really be the result of an actual dimension of just a tenth or two under the manufacturer's intended venturi size.

By the way, my understanding is that when Marcinkiewicz began producing CG trumpets, the physical bell and leadpipe mandrels were transferred from Selmer to Marcinkiewicz as part of the agreement with Claude Gordon's estate. This is based on my memory of a discussion with Joe Marcinkiewicz and his sons.

Sources of dimensional variation:

In measuring the entire bore profile of a number of leadpipes, I have noticed two common ways that inconsistency creeps into their manufacture, and in both cases it is mainly the venturi which is affected.

1. Sometimes the small end of the leadpipe is swaged down when the receiver is pushed onto it. The Kanstul-made Brevete in my list of measurements posted previously is an example of this kind of mistake. It is clear from looking at the whole bore profile that the last eighth inch or so of the leadpipe (within the mouthpiece receiver) has been crimped down, the taper in this region in no way resembling that further into the pipe. The reported venturi of 0.330" would likely be in the neighborhood of 0.340" were it not for this.

2. Some manufacturers cut the small end of the leadpipe under size when trimming the raw, drawn tube (they cut it off at a point further up the small end of the tapered mandrel). This is then assembled with a mouthpiece receiver, and later a tool is inserted to stretch the venturi to a specified dimension. This leaves room for tremendous variation, not only in the venturi (how accurate was that adjustment?), but also in the overall size of the leadpipe. If one pipe is cut off half and inch further up the mandrel from another, then the profile of the whole pipe will be offset by half an inch. Based on my measurements of Bach mouthpipes, I think this is one of the sources of Bach's reputation for inconsistency. Obviously, I have a limited sample size, but those I have measured from the '60s and '70s were cut to size, whereas a number of the later ones were stretched after assembly.

Calicchio:

Lastly, regarding the Calicchio 2 leadpipe, I have only measured one, so I don't know if it was a poor example, whether it was mislabeled, or whether it was a perfect specimen. That's why I encourage as many people as possible to add data to this thread.

So, please keep the measurements coming. Thanks, everyone, for your insights.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
HERMOKIWI
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2008
Posts: 2578

PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2021 3:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Klastos wrote:
Chorus 80J:

I agree that the main difference in the 80J design is the large bell volume and lighter bracing. I think the pistons are also less constricted through the ports than are Bach pistons. Receiver gap is always important, of course. In fact, my 80J had some poor machining in the receiver when I got it, preventing the mouthpiece from seating properly and altering the gap. Once fixed, it played great (except for, perhaps, E and Eb at the top of the staff being a little flatter than the average Bach).


What are the playing advantages of this extremely small venturi/large bell volume design? What is that design supposed to give you that, for example, a Bach Strad 37 doesn't give you?

What are the playing disadvantages of this design? What does this design not give you that, for example, a Bach Strad 37 does give you?

I'm just trying to understand the design concept and why the Chorus 80J was designed the way it was. What were the intended advantages of the extremely small venturi/large bell volume design?
_________________
HERMOKIWI
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Klastos
Regular Member


Joined: 15 Aug 2004
Posts: 51

PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2021 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I knew the answer to that question, I'd be designing horns. I suspect that most instrument designs come about by starting with some standard parts (say, a valve section of a particular bore size, and a bell that is known to give a desired sound characteristic), and then making a number of prototypes with various changes to other components (in this case, perhaps, the leadpipe, the tuning slide, and the bracing). Thus, I imagine the 80J leadpipe may have come about by an empirical approach to modifying an earlier design (the Chorus 90?). This would be where the consulting artist makes a contribution, play-testing prototypes until something feels balanced to that player.

Just by looking at the number of bell and leadpipe models that Vincent Bach designed, and the resulting number of combinations that actually worked well enough to keep in production, I think we get a pretty good idea of how much trial and error is required to find a workable overall design. I know there are theories about what makes an in-tune instrument, what gives an efficient response or certain emitted sound spectrum, but ultimately the player is part of the sound, so it's hard to fully design a horn purely from a theoretical standpoint.

As to my own experience with the 80J, I find it to have a very solid center to the sound, somewhat less brilliance than the Bach 37, a slightly freer blow, but still a very easy response at the quietest dynamic levels. For very clean, precise playing, even though it doesn't feel as good to play, I find a Bach 37 to be easier to use. The slots are tighter and so the notes are very clearly defined in fast passages.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Goby
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 11 Jun 2017
Posts: 641

PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2021 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What tool do you all use to measure the Venturi?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jhellerstein
Regular Member


Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 67

PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2021 2:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Leadpipe Venturi Catalog Reply with quote

HERMOKIWI wrote:
James Becker wrote:
HERMOKIWI wrote:
[quote="Klastos"

What is different about its overall design?


An extremely large bell, think Bach LT72 with fewer braces.

In addition to venturi diameters I suggest measuring receiver gap as well. The blow resistance and articulations of two pipes with the same dimensions will play entirely different when the gap increases or decreases.

I hope this is helpful.


I compared the bell of my Selmer Chorus 80J to the bell of my Bach 72*. Both bells are 4.75" in diameter. The bell on the Selmer has a wider throat and a slower taper from the rim than the bell on the Bach. They both have 3 bell braces (one is on the valve block) but the braces on the Bach are longer where they attach.


James is for sure the expert here. But in this case he may be thinking of the Selmer Concept TT, which has a 5" bell. Mine has bell bracing at the valve cluster, but reading earlier posts on here from dcstep, my understanding was that earlier versions did not have that brace. The other two bell braces are pin-in-socket setups rather than a solid Z brace -- perhaps that relieves stress on the bell.

Like Klastos' experience with the Chorus J, I found the E above the staff kind of flat on the Concept TT, which was always a little tiring.
_________________
"When you hear music, after it's over, it's gone in the air. You can never capture it again." -- Dolphy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Divitt Trumpets
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 11 Aug 2015
Posts: 519
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2021 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Goby wrote:
What tool do you all use to measure the Venturi?


You can use a telescoping gage and a micrometer, but truly accurate measuring is done with plug gages.
_________________
www.divitt-trumpets.com
www.facebook.com/divitt.trumpets
www.instagram.com/divitttrumpets
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
James Becker
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 2827
Location: Littleton, MA

PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2021 6:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Leadpipe Venturi Catalog Reply with quote

HERMOKIWI wrote:
I compared the bell of my Selmer Chorus 80J to the bell of my Bach 72*. Both bells are 4.75" in diameter. The bell on the Selmer has a wider throat and a slower taper from the rim than the bell on the Bach. They both have 3 bell braces (one is on the valve block) but the braces on the Bach are longer where they attach.


The Selmer 80J has two fewer braces on the valve set, otherwise critical on a Bach. One between the bell and 1st slide, and the other between the lower main tuning slide receiver and 3rd slide. It is also missing a cross brace between the upper and lower tuning slide receivers. Not having these three braces greatly reduces resistance and slotting, thereby allowing for a much narrower venturi. It's important to look beyond venturi size and take into account the ENTIRE build of the instrument to appreciate how each element contributes to the system.

I second Ewan Divitt's suggestion of using a telescoping gauge (or a split ball gauge) with a micrometer to measure the venturi. A benefit of this method is the ability to detect an out of round venturi.
_________________
James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com

Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US


Last edited by James Becker on Sun Mar 14, 2021 6:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
HERMOKIWI
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2008
Posts: 2578

PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2021 6:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Leadpipe Venturi Catalog Reply with quote

James Becker wrote:
HERMOKIWI wrote:
I compared the bell of my Selmer Chorus 80J to the bell of my Bach 72*. Both bells are 4.75" in diameter. The bell on the Selmer has a wider throat and a slower taper from the rim than the bell on the Bach. They both have 3 bell braces (one is on the valve block) but the braces on the Bach are longer where they attach.


The Selmer 80J has two fewer braces on the valve set, otherwise critical on a Bach. One between the bell and 1st slide, and the other between the lower main tuning slide receiver and 3rd slide. It is also missing a cross brace between the upper and lower tuning slide receivers. Not having these three braces greatly reduces resistance and slotting, thereby allowing for a much narrower than average venturi. It's important to look beyond venturi size and take into account the ENTIRE build of the instrument to appreciate how each element contributes to the system.

I second Edwin Divitt's suggestion of using a telescoping gauge (or split ball gauge) with a micrometer to measure the venturi.


Yes, I now see these differences in bracing, I was looking only at the bell bracing before. You said that these differences "allow" for a much narrower than average venturi. What would be predicted to happen to the playing characteristics if the venturi was, instead, average and everything else remained the same. I'm just trying to get a basic idea of the effect of venturi size alone on the playing characteristics.
_________________
HERMOKIWI
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 1 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group