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James Becker
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 Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2021 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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When ALL things are equal it may be possible to detect playing differences, but not when comparing apples to oranges.
I suggest you play your stock Bach 25 pipe (.345") next to a 25-O which is the same taper but has been reamed to .351". All things being equal, you may find your answer.
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James Becker
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HERMOKIWI
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Joined: 24 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2021 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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| James Becker wrote: | When ALL things are equal it may be possible to detect playing differences, but not when comparing apples to oranges.
I suggest you play your stock Bach 25 pipe (.345") next to a 25-O which is the same taper but has been reamed to .351". All things being equal, you may find your answer. |
I'm a "pick it up and play it" player. I don't notice major differences in the playing characteristics of various trumpets as long as they are decent horns in good working condition. My question asks for a technical answer, assuming there is a technical answer.
If everything else stays the same on a given horn, except the venturi, is there a predicted general effect in playing characteristics of reducing the size of the venturi or a predicted general effect in playing characteristics of increasing the size of the venturi? Or is this so inconsistent that the general effect of a venturi change on one horn might produce the opposite general effect on a different horn?
Playing characteristics would include such things as response, slotting, intonation and timbre.
Just wondering.
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so what
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Location: near Dallas
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| Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2021 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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| James Becker wrote: | When ALL things are equal it may be possible to detect playing differences, but not when comparing apples to oranges.
I suggest you play your stock Bach 25 pipe (.345") next to a 25-O which is the same taper but has been reamed to .351". All things being equal, you may find your answer. |
This makes me think about the bicycle frames that I build.
There are so many variables in building a frame.
Everyone has their ideas about what does what.
Some right, some wrong.
To learn about what the fork rake and resultant trail does to the ride, I've built several different forks to ride in the same frame.
This taught me a lot about fork rake/trail and bicycle handling.
Varying the rake/trail not changing anything else (well, not very much else).
To learn about how any aspect of trumpet design, I think you'd do best to set up the same kind of comparison.
Some might call this science.
It is just a way of solving a problem. |
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Klastos
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Joined: 15 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2021 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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I agree, pin gauges would be ideal for measuring just the venturi. They're 2" long, and I would think the minus ("go") sizes would be preferred. I use a set of nearly 200 discs that I machined years ago, graduated in 0.001" increments. These are attached to a rod one at a time to measure insertion depth at successive 0.001" steps. My recollection is that a description of this method appeared in an article by R. Dale Olson in the Brass Bulletin. I can't find the reference at the moment, however.
To reiterate my previous thoughts about the effect of varying venturi size, while holding other variables relatively constant, I have found a small venturi to give quick response, a very lively sound even at low dynamic levels, and a tendency to get bright too quickly as dynamics increase. Conversely, with too large a venturi I tend to find the sound dull until a certain dynamic level is reached, but there also exists the potential to play at a greater maximum dynamic level while maintaining a harmonically balanced sound. My experience with this comes from comparing the Bach 25 and 25-0 on one instrument (a large bore Bach), and from playing a variety of Marcinkiewicz leadpipe sizes, again on one instrument (this time, a Marcinkiewicz).
The bicycle frame building comparison is apt. In both cases we're dealing with a marriage of engineering and human physiology and psychology: how it feels can be nearly as important as how it functions in an objective sense.
Again, let's add some more venturi measurements. This could be a great reference for future discussions. |
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HERMOKIWI
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| Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2021 1:02 am Post subject: |
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| Klastos wrote: | | To reiterate my previous thoughts about the effect of varying venturi size, while holding other variables relatively constant, I have found a small venturi to give quick response, a very lively sound even at low dynamic levels, and a tendency to get bright too quickly as dynamics increase. Conversely, with too large a venturi I tend to find the sound dull until a certain dynamic level is reached, but there also exists the potential to play at a greater maximum dynamic level while maintaining a harmonically balanced sound. My experience with this comes from comparing the Bach 25 and 25-0 on one instrument (a large bore Bach), and from playing a variety of Marcinkiewicz leadpipe sizes, again on one instrument (this time, a Marcinkiewicz). |
Thank you. This is the general information I was requesting.
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Andy Cooper
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| Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2021 9:42 am Post subject: |
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| HERMOKIWI wrote: | [
If everything else stays the same on a given horn, except the venturi, is there a predicted general effect in playing characteristics of reducing the size of the venturi or a predicted general effect in playing characteristics of increasing the size of the venturi? Or is this so inconsistent that the general effect of a venturi change on one horn might produce the opposite general effect on a different horn?
. |
One reason this is a tough question is because increasing the size of the venturi by reaming also changes your mouthpiece venturi gap relationship. (The following assumes that the GR gap formula is somewhat correct.)
1. Using the GR formula which includes the thickness of the end of the mouthpiece shank and the thickness of the venturi wall, set your receiver /shank to the "ideal" distance. Evaluate the horn to determine if it is acceptable.
2. Ream the venturi to a larger size. Measure the new thinner thickness of the venturi wall, recalculate for the "ideal" gap. Re-set your gap. Evaluate the horn. |
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Divitt Trumpets
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| Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2021 11:49 am Post subject: |
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I would never adjust the gap on an instrument by reaming the venturi.
I would adjust the receiver taper or the receiver fit on the leadpipe.
Reaming the venturi doesn't just change the gap, it changes the length of the leadpipe and possibly the taper. It also only allows you to increase the gap, and not decrease it.
What you can adjust easily is the shape of the venturi by using the Bobby Shew tool to chamfer or square off the end of the leadpipe. This can have a noticeable effect on the response of the instrument
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Andy Cooper
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| Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2021 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Divitt Trumpets wrote: | | I would never adjust the gap on an instrument by reaming the venturi.
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Sorry - I was not implying that one should adjust the gap by reaming the venturi.
My point was that the gap relationship is changed by the reaming process - if you go by the GR gap formula- since the thickness of the venturi would then be thinner.
After you set the venturi size, you would then need to re-establish the optimal gap before evaluating what effect, if any, changing the venturi had. |
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Divitt Trumpets
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| Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2021 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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I disagree. I think when experimenting, you need to change only 1 variable at a time to discover the effects.
The optimal gap is different for every player, there is no magic number that works for everyone, so I personally don't think it should be used as a qualifier for the effects of the venturi adjustment.
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Andy Cooper
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| Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2021 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Divitt Trumpets wrote: | I disagree. I think when experimenting, you need to change only 1 variable at a time to discover the effects.
The optimal gap is different for every player, there is no magic number that works for everyone, so I personally don't think it should be used as a qualifier for the effects of the venturi adjustment. |
Then we disagree.
No damage done. |
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lipshurt
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| Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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Wait....
The “bobby shew tool” can be used to “chamfer OR square off” the end of the leadpipe? Chamfer is the opposite of square-ing off.
I think what mr. Cooper was getting at was that if the venturing is bigger, then the thickness of the wall of the leadpipe would be thinner, and therefor would like to see a smaller gap. According to the GR gap formula this is true, but the numbers are too small to work it that way. There isn’t that much room to work in that area.
Chamfering, or beveling the edge of the pipe can thin the wall quite a bit though, and that does change the gap dynamics, and can make a horn play either way better, and sometimes worse depending on the gap situation. For instance, if your gap is too small to work best, and you bevel the pipe, the small gap migh now work way better. Same with beveling the exit wall of the mouthpiece. Changing the mouthpiece is easier and less scary to do. You can always throw a mouthpiece away, or cut the top off etc.
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Tpt_Guy
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| Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2021 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| lipshurt wrote: | Wait....
The “bobby shew tool” can be used to “chamfer OR square off” the end of the leadpipe? Chamfer is the opposite of square-ing off. |
I don't think he is meaning "chamfer" and "square-off" are synonyms.
Matt Frost makes a venturi tool that is squared off on one end and beveled on the other that can be used to either bevel the edge of the venturi or square if off.
http://www.frostcustombrass.net/tools.html
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Divitt Trumpets
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JayKosta
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| Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2021 7:24 am Post subject: |
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| Divitt Trumpets wrote: | I disagree. I think when experimenting, you need to change only 1 variable at a time to discover the effects.
The optimal gap is different for every player, there is no magic number that works for everyone, so I personally don't think it should be used as a qualifier for the effects of the venturi adjustment. |
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If the 'optimal gap' has been set for the original venturi ID, then to 'change only 1 variable' (the venturi size) the 'optimal gap' should be determined and set for the CHANGED venturi ID.
Similar to testing different mouthpieces - if optimal gap was determined and set for 1 of the mouthpieces, then just trying another mouthpiece without any attention to the gap would not be a meaningful test.
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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ScottA
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| Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 7:44 am Post subject: |
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I can add some from my GR consult days:
Bach 180-37ML .3445
Bach 180-43ML .345
Bach 180-37G- ML .345
Bach C180L .3485
180-37 ML .344
180-37 ML .3445
LT180-43 ML .345+
Conn Vintage 1 LT-1B-46 .342+ (based on model this should be .346)
Conn Vintage 1 1B-46 .344 (based on model this should also be .346)
Yamaha 8310Z Gen 1 .342
Schilke B1 .341
Courtois 302 "C" .363 (!)
Yamaha 8310Z Gen 1 .341
Yamaha model 631 .339
Bach C180 L .338 (!)
Connstellation (1955) .325
Bach 180-37 (early 70's I think) .342
(For me-the Best Strad I have ever played!)
These were all measured with certified pin gauges.
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Divitt Trumpets
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| Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 9:46 am Post subject: |
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Conn 8b .327
Monette b973 .364
Monette b993 .365
Sonare Blackburn .344
Benge 4x .337
Committee (didn't notate which bore model) .354
Selmer chorus 80j .317
Early Elkhart Strad 37 .340
Pilczuk .345
I trim my C leadpipe at .362 and my Bbs at .350, but part of the final adjustments on my instruments could potentially affect that, so the number might vary slightly depending on how the instrument feels to play.
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Klastos
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| Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for all the additions. Maybe I'll try to create a separate post in this thread with all of the contributions compiled into one list.
I just found a copy of the Calicchio catalog from 2008, which lists venturi sizes that John Duda used:
Calicchio 2................0.348
Calicchio 3................0.339
Calicchio 7................0.344
Calicchio 9................0.349
Also of note, the Dave Trigg DT-S1s3M, which I take to have a medium bore and a 3 pipe, is listed with a slightly more open venturi at 0.343. |
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AndyDavids
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| Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 5:33 am Post subject: |
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| ScottA wrote: |
Bach 180-37ML .3445
Bach 180-43ML .345 |
Very cool! Is it safe to say that the bell makes more of a difference than the Venturi? all else being equal of course...but the sound characteristics of these two are pretty obvious right? |
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ScottA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 7:03 am Post subject: |
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| AndyDavids wrote: | | ScottA wrote: |
Bach 180-37ML .3445
Bach 180-43ML .345 |
Very cool! Is it safe to say that the bell makes more of a difference than the Venturi? all else being equal of course...but the sound characteristics of these two are pretty obvious right? |
Keep in mind these are for specific instruments. I have the serial #'s for each of them as well. All ML Bach Strads with the standard 25 pipe SHOULD be .345. I have seen them as small as .342 but rarely, if ever, larger than .345
I can find a considerable difference in response with different sizes and almost always prefer slightly smaller sizes on Bb horns. Yes, I agree that the sound characteristics of the 37/43 is certainly more bell related than any difference there may be in venturi size.
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Yamahaguy
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| Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 9:17 am Post subject: |
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| ScottA wrote: | | AndyDavids wrote: | | ScottA wrote: |
Bach 180-37ML .3445
Bach 180-43ML .345 |
Very cool! Is it safe to say that the bell makes more of a difference than the Venturi? all else being equal of course...but the sound characteristics of these two are pretty obvious right? |
Keep in mind these are for specific instruments. I have the serial #'s for each of them as well. |
This would most definitely affect their sound also, either with Mt. Vernon's or Elkharts.
There are also too many variables to generalize the sound difference- like valve
compression/alignment, gap, lacquer vs. silver, and brace tension.
Closest I ever got was comparing two Benge 3x's only ten serial #'s apart! Both
silver plated but sounded completely different. Had two Mt. Vernon 43's under
100 numbers apart, but one was lacquer the other silver. Both nice, but equally unique. |
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