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Should we use our cellphones to record our playing


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Jaw04
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I disagree that a bad microphone makes a good player sound like an amateur. A bad microphone or bad bit rate still doesn't affect intonation, articulation, range, rhythm, musical choices, inflections. If it makes the tone sound thin you can tell it's the mic. It's like hearing a good player in a practice room vs a concert hall. The concert hall sounds a lot better but you can still tell they can play in the practice room.
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Bflatman
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is very interesting Jaw04 and very logical.

However the player had no idea he was using the wrong mic so he played the same way as before and after

The difference was profound.

I can postulate what may be going on.

If a microphone is an expensive high quality microphone it picks up all the tones we hear if something sounds good to us it sounds good in the recording.

A poor microphone may however pick up a restricted spectrum of sound, that slim part of the spectrum necessary to record speech for example.

The result is you have really good recordings of speech but not so good recordings of anything other than speech

If the player is playing poorly and unevenly in that part of the sound spectrum that is used in speech he will record poorly and unevenly on devices that are only recording the speech part of the spectrum.

When listening to a recording playback you cannot hear anything the microphone did not pick up so you easily believe that the microphone picked everything well when it missed maybe half of all the sound that was present.

And you cant discover this without making a duplicate recording on another device at the same time that may suffer the same issue.

If a camera is blind to red light and you dress in red you become invisible on the picture. This is the green screen effect in tv and movie recordings

Your assumption is that all microphones record the entire sound spectrum equally well I do not believe this is true.

Cheap microphones cut corners to cut costs so what corners have been cut and what are the implications.

If the mic ignores your pro sounding tones and records your amateur sounding tones you sound like an amateur but in real life and on better recording equipment you sound like a pro.

This is how a bad microphone might make a good player sound like an amateur but a better microphone makes him sound good.

On your example it is perhaps more a case of not hearing at all the flutes the clarinets and horns the brass and the strings and only hearing the percussion and the piano.

It is not hearing everyone a bit worse.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used to reliably HATE recordings of myself. Then I took a decade+ of lessons with a pro. Now I only occasionally hate recordings of myself.

And some of the phone recorings I've heard have been reasonable, though I do agree that given a choice, a PC or dedicated recorder with a better mic is a far better way to go.
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Jaw04
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheiden wrote:
I used to reliably HATE recordings of myself. Then I took a decade+ of lessons with a pro. Now I only occasionally hate recordings of myself.

And some of the phone recorings I've heard have been reasonable, though I do agree that given a choice, a PC or dedicated recorder with a better mic is a far better way to go.

When I was in college a professor recorded my rehearsing a recital. He used a ZOOM H2 recorder. I couldn't believe how terrible I sounded. It sounded "nothing" like how I heard myself while I was playing.
But yeah, that was really what I sounded like. Was it a professional recording? No. But it captured the sounds that were in the room, just like a cell phone or ANY other recording device would capture. I just wasn't used to hearing my own voice. I really sounded that bad. It taught me a lot and like cheiden said, with time you get better. Recordings do not lie.

I own a few microphones, a USB snowball mic, an SM58, a ribbon mic, and an AKG C214. I prefer to record myself on the ribbon mic for the most natural reproduction of my sound. Sometimes I use the C214. They have some different qualities for sure. I have a good audio interface, a new iMac, and sofware. But as far as hearing "how good I am" they all sound the same whatever I record on. I sound like myself on all of them.


Last edited by Jaw04 on Mon Mar 22, 2021 5:36 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Jaw04
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bflatman wrote:
That is very interesting Jaw04 and very logical.

However the player had no idea he was using the wrong mic so he played the same way as before and after

The difference was profound.

I can postulate what may be going on.

If a microphone is an expensive high quality microphone it picks up all the tones we hear if something sounds good to us it sounds good in the recording.

A poor microphone may however pick up a restricted spectrum of sound, that slim part of the spectrum necessary to record speech for example.

The result is you have really good recordings of speech but not so good recordings of anything other than speech

If the player is playing poorly and unevenly in that part of the sound spectrum that is used in speech he will record poorly and unevenly on devices that are only recording the speech part of the spectrum.

When listening to a recording playback you cannot hear anything the microphone did not pick up so you easily believe that the microphone picked everything well when it missed maybe half of all the sound that was present.

And you cant discover this without making a duplicate recording on another device at the same time that may suffer the same issue.

If a camera is blind to red light and you dress in red you become invisible on the picture. This is the green screen effect in tv and movie recordings

Your assumption is that all microphones record the entire sound spectrum equally well I do not believe this is true.

Cheap microphones cut corners to cut costs so what corners have been cut and what are the implications.

If the mic ignores your pro sounding tones and records your amateur sounding tones you sound like an amateur but in real life and on better recording equipment you sound like a pro.

This is how a bad microphone might make a good player sound like an amateur but a better microphone makes him sound good.

On your example it is perhaps more a case of not hearing at all the flutes the clarinets and horns the brass and the strings and only hearing the percussion and the piano.

It is not hearing everyone a bit worse.
Can you share the link to this example?
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Bflatman
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I came across it by chance I will look for it and post it if I can track it down. I question whether there is any point to this however.

I will say this, why do some microphones cost 1000 dollars some cost 5000 dollars and some cost 18,000 dollars if the sound reproduction quality is just as good on a smartphone mic that costs only 2 dollars.

That is what we are really talking about, whether we should record ourselves on a 2 dollar microphone.

Cheaper is not always better and with microphones as with trumpets there is a price level we should not descend below.

I cannot believe that we would ever need a 1000 dollar microphone, if we sound the same and just as good on a 2 dollar microphone.

We seem to be hung up here on deciding whether a 1000 dollar microphone is going to be better than a 2 dollar microphone and you are demanding that I prove that a 2 dollar mic is not as good as a 1000 dollar mic.

I should not have to prove that it should be a given.

I would hope the 1000 dollar mic is better or spending anything more than 2 dollars on a microphone is a pointless waste of money.

What exactly do you get for 1000 dollars or even 500 dollars for a mic that you dont get for 2 dollars if it is not better and more faithful sound reproduction.

In trumpet terms if we can expect high quality sound from a 3000 dollar bach strad why dont we also expect the same high quality sound from a 9 dollar trumpet.

Why would I buy a 1000 dollar trumpet and then record its tones on a 2 dollar mic.

I do not doubt that some cheap mics are good but why do you doubt that some cheap mics are bad.
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RL
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 3:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I throw a blanket or a kissen on the phone after I've pushed the record button.
This helps to filter some additional noises....
That being said......normaly I do not record my playing...
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Jaw04
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bflatman wrote:
I came across it by chance I will look for it and post it if I can track it down. I question whether there is any point to this however.

I will say this, why do some microphones cost 1000 dollars some cost 5000 dollars and some cost 18,000 dollars if the sound reproduction quality is just as good on a smartphone mic that costs only 2 dollars.

That is what we are really talking about, whether we should record ourselves on a 2 dollar microphone.

Cheaper is not always better and with microphones as with trumpets there is a price level we should not descend below.

I cannot believe that we would ever need a 1000 dollar microphone, if we sound the same and just as good on a 2 dollar microphone.

We seem to be hung up here on deciding whether a 1000 dollar microphone is going to be better than a 2 dollar microphone and you are demanding that I prove that a 2 dollar mic is not as good as a 1000 dollar mic.

I should not have to prove that it should be a given.

I would hope the 1000 dollar mic is better or spending anything more than 2 dollars on a microphone is a pointless waste of money.

What exactly do you get for 1000 dollars or even 500 dollars for a mic that you dont get for 2 dollars if it is not better and more faithful sound reproduction.

In trumpet terms if we can expect high quality sound from a 3000 dollar bach strad why dont we also expect the same high quality sound from a 9 dollar trumpet.

Why would I buy a 1000 dollar trumpet and then record its tones on a 2 dollar mic.

I do not doubt that some cheap mics are good but why do you doubt that some cheap mics are bad.
I think for this conversation to be meaningful you need to explain why you are recording yourself and what you are looking to gain from it.
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Bflatman
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are quite right jaw, in fundamental terms we always need to understand what success will look like for us in any enterprise and question how we do things.

And as musicians we must discover what we sound like or we cannot improve and sound better.

But the feedback must be totally faithful and truthful or it is of no use to us.

I need total reality or I cannot identify and work on the real errors in my playing

I very rarely record myself but I do it to make sure that I have good attack good tone initiation and consistency and smoothness of tone is present.

Hearing something bad in a recording that is caused by the equipment and not me can send me down a wrong road for many months and waste my time.

If it aint broke dont fix it, so we need to know what really is broke not what a cheap mic thinks is broke because of its failings and inadequacies.

I find it useful to play towards a glass or masonry wall from just a few feet away I can hear every nuance and every error.

But to make sure I am not missing something I do occasionally record myself, the idea is to pick up any obvious and gross errors in recording and then listen for them to see if they are still there when playing against a wall.

When I can trust a recording I will use that much more, but right now I cannot.
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 5:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Should we use our cellphones to record our playing Reply with quote

Bflatman wrote:

Should we use cellphones to record our playing.

In my opinion no, not in a million years. I do not believe they are fit for that purpose.

If I am going to sound like a dog on a recording I want it to be a faithful dog.

I value your opinions. What are your opinions on this.

Have you found a good cellphone with good mic, what is a good substitute that is fit for purpose.

What exactly is it you hope to get out of this thread?

Have you found a good cellphone with good mic, what is a good substitute that is fit for purpose.

You've been shown that there *are* cell phones that make solid recordings. Apparently you personally have never been in possession of one. I feel confident I could use my cell in a studio context - i.e. record the trumpet part in a treated room at an optimal distance from the phone, put it in a solid mix and you'd never know that it wasn't recorded using a conventional "studio" mic. You could be using a vintage Neumann or Telefunken tube mic that probably costs more than some cars you've owned and if you don't use it the right way it's not going to sound like a studio recording. If it's in the middle of a reflective room and you're some distance away you're going to hear "room" in the recording just like you would with a cell phone.

As far as substitutes if for some reason you don't want to get a cell phone that's capable of recording you then you need to get a gizmo that is. You've been advised of such gizmos.

If you get something like a Tascam portable recorder like my DR-05 you're probably going to be put off the by the learning curve to learn to use the interface and if you're doing living room recordings they're not going to sound any better than my Motorola cell phone.

A further caveat is that if you want a recording that truly and faithfully captures the sound of a trumpet...the bad news is the technology doesn't exist. The best recordings made and played back using the most hifalutin' gear still only result in a compromised approximation of what the instrument sounds like.

If you want something that's good enough to give you an idea of what you sound like when you play and expose flaws in your playing for the goal of personal improvement, a cell phone will do it.
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Vin DiBona
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread has become rather pointless.
A cellphone can be used as a simple tool to make a judgement on what you sound like and where your performance can be improved.
A cellphone is not going to give you stunning results simply because they aren't made to do that!
Cheap microphones and speakers and amps with a limited frequency output give you just that. You can find phones that give you better sound, but don't even think you will get state of the art sound out of even the best of them.
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SteveDurand
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since cell phone microphones are optimized to record voices, If you want to validate your sound quality, you should use it to record all of the people telling you that you are the best trumpet player they have ever heard.

(Please don't take offense. This is just intended as a joke)

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Jaw04
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bflatman wrote:

I need total reality or I cannot identify and work on the real errors in my playing
.
That does not exist. No technology can capture and reproduce a sound exactly the way your ears do.

The errors are in your playing in real life, on a cell phone, or a $2000 ribbon mic.
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Bflatman
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do not believe that is correct.

What you are saying is all recording devices are the same.

I am saying all devices are different and you get what you pay for.

Why dont we cut to the chase here.

Why dont you contact wayne bergeron chris botti or any of the performing musicians and reveal to them they are being stupid using expensive mics

Maybe wynton will agree with you and start recording his albums on cellphones from now on.

You may be on to something here wynton can check his tuning on app while he is recording and sound even better than on those ridiculous and pathetic overpriced studio mics he uses now.

And all those foolish players who have claimed their sound improved after ditching the cellphone mic and using an expensive mic are clearly loopy and need medication.

we should demand that all professionals record on cellphones because they are just as good.

Personally I accept I am insane and being stupid but I will use decent microphones if I want a decent recording I will leave the cellphone recordings to you and wish you luck with them.
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Jaw04
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bflatman wrote:
I do not believe that is correct.

What you are saying is all recording devices are the same.

I am saying all devices are different and you get what you pay for.

Why dont we cut to the chase here.

Why dont you contact wayne bergeron chris botti or any of the performing musicians and reveal to them they are being stupid using expensive mics

Maybe wynton will agree with you and start recording his albums on cellphones from now on.

You may be on to something here wynton can check his tuning on app while he is recording and sound even better than on those ridiculous and pathetic overpriced studio mics he uses now.

And all those foolish players who have claimed their sound improved after ditching the cellphone mic and using an expensive mic are clearly loopy and need medication.

we should demand that all professionals record on cellphones because they are just as good.

Personally I accept I am insane and being stupid but I will use decent microphones if I want a decent recording I will leave the cellphone recordings to you and wish you luck with them.
No they're not all the same. Every mic is different. I would never record an album on a phone, but I would record myself playing to hear how well I am playing. What are you talking about?
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Bflatman
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will give you a bit of information about microphones

Not all microphones have the same response across the sound spectrum

The microphone depends entirely upon a diaphragm

A microphone diaphragm is a thin membrane that moves in reaction to external sound pressure variation. A microphone diaphragm is a key transducer component in converting acoustic energy into electrical energy.

If the sounds are low pitch a large and thick diaphragm converts those frequencies efficiently

If the sounds are high pitch a small and thin diaphragm converts those frequencies efficiently

it is about moving mass efficiently.

A microphone that is designed to operate in and capture low frequencies such as a voice will not capture the higher fequencies in music efficiently

A microphone that is designed to operate in and capture high frequencies will not capture lower frequencies efficiently

A microphone that will capture a broad range of frequencies will have difficulty capturing them all equally well unless it is very well made and that means very expensive

Ribbon mics use a ribbon and that ribbon has a very even response.

That is why ribbon mics are the go to choice for brass players. Although some electrets do have an even response and can challenge ribbons.

non the less it is the expensive electrets that have even response

Cheap mics are electret An electret microphone is a type of condenser microphone that has a permanently-polarized capsule.

The capsule, which acts as a parallel-plate capacitor, is charged via a quasi-permanent electret material that is applied to either the front plate (diaphragm) or stationary backplate.

The problem is that on the very tiny and cheap electrets as you find in cellphones the diaphragm acts like a large and thick diaphragm due to its proportionally large mass.

This means the frequency response of the electret in a cellphone is more efficient in capturing the narrower and lower speech band.

It does not surprise me that iPhones have higher quality electrets because apple products are made up to a quality and not down to a price as android cellphones are.

I do know what I am talking about with electronics, and I can tell you that there are huge variations in response across the sound spectrum in microphones this is due to their being electro mechanical devices that depend upon sound waves being converted into electrical impulses based upon the movement of mass.

This is a very delicate engineering problem.

Because of this cheap means bad and bad means distortion uneven response and lack of linear response.
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Bflatman
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In answer to your question.

I am talking about standards.

I would not test a race car round a cart track I would test it round a race track

If I want to know how a device sounds I do not use a poor quality recording I use a high quality recording.

If I want to know how a meal tastes I would not give it to a man with poor taste buds.

Catering manufacturers exclusively use tasters who are the best tasters in the business.

Aircraft manufacturers use the best pilots as their test pilots.

Why do you disagree with me when I say I want the best sound recording equipment if I wish to judge my playing for quality.

When testing anything at all anything but the best is senseless.
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Jaw04
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bflatman wrote:
In answer to your question.

I am talking about standards.

I would not test a race car round a cart track I would test it round a race track

If I want to know how a device sounds I do not use a poor quality recording I use a high quality recording.

If I want to know how a meal tastes I would not give it to a man with poor taste buds.

Catering manufacturers exclusively use tasters who are the best tasters in the business.

Aircraft manufacturers use the best pilots as their test pilots.

Why do you disagree with me when I say I want the best sound recording equipment if I wish to judge my playing for quality.

When testing anything at all anything but the best is senseless.
Okay, then get the best quality equipment you can find. That's a wrap.
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bflatman wrote:
I need total reality or I cannot identify and work on the real errors in my playing

Great players have long managed to work on their flaws without magic recording gear, many without hearing themselves recorded at all until after they got good enough that someone wanted to record them.

If you want the closest thing to total reality get set up like Alison in this video - in an acoustically designed and treated room/hall - do you know what diffusers and bass traps are? You can rent one to do your practicing or of course you can build one and pay someone who knows how to design them. And 10 or 12 high dollar mics of various designs - condenser, ribbon - for example a pair of electronically matched Coles 4038 ribbon mics like in this video should only run you around three grand - of course that doesn't include a power supply, mounts, cables. A matched pair of AKG C414's like she's also using around $2,500 - you might snag a used pair in decent condition on eBay, and so on. All the mics need power and peripheral hardware. And a board and recording hardware and software...and studio-grade monitors for playback - again in an acoustically designed and treated room with attendant power supplies, power conditioners, etc.

It'll likely set you back more than your house cost and it still won't give you total reality but it'll get you as close as it's possible to get. I imagine it'll show the flaws in your playing. Of course so will a cell phone.


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Bflatman
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert

The discussion is about my refusal to use a cellphone at the cost of 0 dollars to record my practice.

I quite understand that the most expensive equipment at tens of thousands is as close to reality as possible, but plenty of microphones are very high quality and record truthfully.

I do not need a ferrari to get to the shops but there are members in here who are arguing that the choice is between a ferrari or a bicycle.

It appears that members are trying to force me to use a cellphone for all recordings. I resent being forced to use the cheapest and worst equipment.

And when I say I want to hear what I sound like I am told I only need a cellphone for that. That is bullsh1t.

There are members who report that they ditched their cellphone because the cellphone gave poor recordings and used a separate inexpensive mic and they got an immediate increase in recording quality.

Are they liars are we to ignore them simply because what they say is inconvenient.

Some members are also saying two things first they say that all microphones record what we sound like but then they go on to say that all microphones record us differently.

This is insanity, holding two opposing views simultaneously or it is being disingenuous.

Either all microphones record what we sound like or they all record us differently.

And when I say I want to hear total reality you take that to mean I want the highest quality as well. Reality and quality are not the same things.

A 100 dollar mic gives reality because it records all the sounds presented to it but at lower quality than a 1000 dollar mic.

I dont need a ribbon mic to hear my practice but I sure dont want a 2 dollar toy mic in a cellphone.

In here it is all or nothing either a 50,000 dollar mic or a 2 dollar mic there is nothing in between for the members here it appears.

That is like saying you can use a 9 dollar trumpet or a 30,000 dollar trumpet and nothing in between.

I think that is ridiculous.

I want to spend a few tens of dollars on a mic so I can get good recordings. Is that so evil that it must be opposed .

Why am I being forced to use the cheapest possible microphone for recording my playing.

This appears to me to be a control issue.

Some players in here do not like anyones opinion if it is not their own opinion.

Why is it the end of the world in here if a player chooses to use the equipment they think is the best option they can afford.

Am I breaking the rules by doing this.

Let me put it in simple terms.

I want to hear all my errors and all my mistakes and I want to hear
clearly what I sound like.

For this I do not wish to use a cellphone with a 2 dollar crappy microphone in it I want to use a 50 dollar separate microphone if that will record reality or a 100 dollar microphone if that will.

I do not wish to buy a secondhand iPhone for 400 dollars when a 50 dollar mic will do.

Why am I not allowed to use a 50 dollar mic if I choose to.

If I was to do as members in here wish and record myself on a cellphone and then polish my performance so that the cellphone recording sounds great, and I then go to a studio and record there.

When the engineer states that my sound is crap do I defeat him with the argument "I sound great on a cellphone so I must sound great in recordings so you must be incompetent"

I deeply suspect that if I buy a 50 dollar mic and use that I have a good chance of polishing my performances to a reasonable level.

I plan and expect to be in a recording studio quite soon so I deeply suspect that polishing my performance on a cellphone will result in ridicule rather than praise.

Is it really insanity or stupidity to use a decent mic if you want decent recordings.

Or is the idea that you need good equipment to make good music totally new or unknown to members in here.

Do the members in here choose to use the cheapest and worst equipment they can get away with or do they use the best equipment they can afford.

Call me stupid if you wish for saying this but I use the best equipment I can afford that does the job well.

I look forward to seeing members junk all those xenos strads and committees so I can buy them cheap because lets face it they dont need that high quality they can get away with far cheaper instruments like Packer instruments instead.
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Conn 80a Cornet
Boosey & Hawkes Emperor Trumpet
Olds Fullerton Special Trumpet
Selmer Invicta Trumpet
Yamaha YCR 2330II Cornet
Selmer Student Trumpet
Bohland and Fuchs peashooter Trumpet
Boosey and Hawkes Regent Cornet
Lark M4045 Cornet
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