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| Which do you recommend for use to play with an organ in church to accompany congregational singing? |
| Schilke S22CHD trumpet |
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| Schilke A2C cornet |
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| Total Votes : 34 |
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Grits Burgh
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Location: South Carolina
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 Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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| HaveTrumpetWillTravel wrote: | It sounds like you're wanting the C to ease transposing, not for the sound. I would pick whatever plays in tune best. I've played some on C but now just transpose as I like the tuning better on Bb. If you can get the music ahead of time, that's not a bad option.
I also have a carol c pocket trumpet. That's a less overwhelming sound. We had a guest trumpet player in our small church and he just buried us with his C (laser projection and bright). Honestly, it was too much for our space.
That said, I'm a big fan of more equipment  Do folk play C cornet much? |
I need to thank everyone for posting. You folks have given me a lot to think about.
The whole point of the C instrument was to help with transposing and ad libbing while sight reading. If I have just have a day or two to go over the music, the transposition thing is no problem.
Frankly, I don't know anyone who plays a C cornet and as far as I know, there isn't a big demand for them. I suppose that if I buy one, I'd better like it. Selling it might not be too easy.
I never considered a C pocket trumpet (I've never played a pocket trumpet). I am going to have to make a trip to well stocked music store to try out some of these "exotic" options.
_________________
Bach Stradivarius 37 (1971)
Schilke HC 1
Getzen 3810 C Cornet
King Master Bb Cornet (1945)
B&S 3145 Challenger I Series Flugelhorn
Life is short; buy every horn you want and die happy. |
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Grits Burgh
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Joined: 04 Oct 2015
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| Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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| RETrumpet wrote: | | I am a VERY happy owner of an A2C and it the finest cornet I have played. (Still haven't played a new Getzen DLX, but I digress...) I use it all the time in wind ensemble settings (transposing) and the intonation is superior to most C horns I've played (C through G are spot on with no alternate fingerings). Keep in mind that this cornet was designed for orchestral use, so it does project quite well, but it is also mouthpiece sensitive, so a deeper British-style mouthpiece can make it very warm and round. |
I am thinking about the C instrument strictly to accompany congregational singing at church. But, I might have an opportunity to play with a local jazz band as well. However, my first choice for jazz is my HC1. I would only use the cornet when the band played in concert E - improvising in F# isn't my strong suit.
I really like your suggestion of the A2C - I'd like to purchase my horn from Austin Custom Brass.
_________________
Bach Stradivarius 37 (1971)
Schilke HC 1
Getzen 3810 C Cornet
King Master Bb Cornet (1945)
B&S 3145 Challenger I Series Flugelhorn
Life is short; buy every horn you want and die happy. |
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Grits Burgh
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Joined: 04 Oct 2015
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| Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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| shofarguy wrote: | I get the C thing. I had an unexpected experience when I was reviewing the Kanstul 1410 Bb/C Convertible trumpet. I started with it in Bb at a rehearsal at my church. I tuned to the organ, which was a traditional style electronic console type, but I felt the horn just wasn't matching pitches. I listened in and the principle notes I was playing were on pitch, but something just wasn't right.
I switched out the slides and tried again in C. Voila! The overtone series lined up perfectly and the "fighting" stopped. I don't know if that was a quirk unique to the 1410, or if it would have happened with any C trumpet, but it made a noticeable difference to me that day.
On the other hand, when I started playing trumpet again, after 30 years off, I decided that I would learn to play by ear, which I just could not do before. I "built" all of the scales by ear, not by reading sheet music, and practiced them every day.
I took the hymnal we used at church and picked out hymns I knew well, looked at the written keys and starting notes, then worked out the melodies by memory. Next, I would play the same hymn in concert key. Sometimes, I would pick another key and work it out again. I resisted using the hymnal as a reference, unless I got stuck on an accidental or interval. After awhile, transposing was no longer an issue.
Reading music uses the analytical side of the brain. Improvising, transposing or playing by memory uses the creative side of the brain. At least for me, I had to create a bridge between the two by forcing myself to play the melodies I knew without looking at the music. Eventually, it helped my playing in all aspects. |
Brian, thanks for posting.
I too use the hymnal to practice both transposing and playing by ear. Sometimes I take a hymn and play it in every different key. It is good practice. The problem is that there are a lot of hymns in our hymnal. The tunes to many of them are unfamiliar to me so I end up transposing (vice playing by ear) on the fly. I'm not that bad at it, but I'm not perfect. If I have time to practice, no problem. But if I am sight reading unfamiliar music, well, as I say, my transposing is not perfect. A C instrument just appears to be an easy technical fix.
As for sound, my current arsenal has that covered. I don't need a cornet; my HC1 does a great job of producing a full, warm sound (in fact, I love the sound that horn produces). The question is, if I get a C horn, would a trumpet be more suitable or a cornet. Playing both is good advice. I need to find a store that has both so that I can play test them.
_________________
Bach Stradivarius 37 (1971)
Schilke HC 1
Getzen 3810 C Cornet
King Master Bb Cornet (1945)
B&S 3145 Challenger I Series Flugelhorn
Life is short; buy every horn you want and die happy. |
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Grits Burgh
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 04 Oct 2015
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Location: South Carolina
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| Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Richard III wrote: | I used to have a little trio with a piano player who had a huge book of tunes. I would look over her shoulder to play along. Transposing became second nature and it actually was difficult at one point to remember to play a regular Bb part again.
I don't think music is going to be complicated. Staying with your current instrument is certainly cheaper.
As for trumpet vs. cornet, I will always pick cornet. But I'm the cornet guy. |
Thanks for posting.
More practice is certainly a good idea. I get what you are saying about getting locked into transposing so that switching back to playing what is written sometimes throws you off for a bit. It's kind of like driving in the Japan (or the U.K.). I caught on to driving on the "wrong" side of the road pretty quickly, but coming back to the U.S., was a real shock. I am surprised the survived.
I have to say that I also love cornets. But then, I like trumpets, and flugelhorns, and French horns. Pics, on the other hand, I love to listen to them, but playing them is another matter.
_________________
Bach Stradivarius 37 (1971)
Schilke HC 1
Getzen 3810 C Cornet
King Master Bb Cornet (1945)
B&S 3145 Challenger I Series Flugelhorn
Life is short; buy every horn you want and die happy. |
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Grits Burgh
Heavyweight Member
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Posts: 805
Location: South Carolina
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| Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:27 pm Post subject: Re: C Trumpet VS C Cornet for playing in church |
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| Andy Cooper wrote: | | Try a C trumpet with the Curry 3TC (I think that's the model). I used the TC (with a different rim ) on my C trumpet in church for several years with good results. |
Andy, another great idea. I very much like Curry mouthpieces. It didn't occur to me to use a deeper one with a C trumpet. I may have to pick up some deeper ones to take with me to a music store. It would be interesting to feel how they play and hear how they sound.
_________________
Bach Stradivarius 37 (1971)
Schilke HC 1
Getzen 3810 C Cornet
King Master Bb Cornet (1945)
B&S 3145 Challenger I Series Flugelhorn
Life is short; buy every horn you want and die happy. |
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Ed Kennedy
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Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 3187
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| Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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| The S22CHD is an orchestral instrument, designed to go up against the Bach large bore C trumpets. Another alternative would be the Schilke medium bore c trumpets: the C6 and C7. They would probably be special order but they are very easy blowing nice solo instruments. |
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kristiner
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Joined: 01 Oct 2012
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| Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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My main Bb is an HC2, and I play an S22CHD in the orchestra. As Ed said, it's designed to produce a big, powerful sound. BUT - the Curry TC mouthpiece really tames that and produces a lovely, dark, velvety tone that is really close to a cornet. I've used that mouthpiece for soft solo parts and times that I need to play a C trumpet but really don't want to be exposed. I imagine that combination would be great for what you're looking for, and probably more versatile in the long run than a C cornet.
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Kris Tiner
Professor of Music, Director of Jazz Studies
Bakersfield College
http://kristiner.com |
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dr_trumpet
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Joined: 22 Nov 2001
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| Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Grits Burgh wrote: |
Frankly, I don't know anyone who plays a C cornet and as far as I know, there isn't a big demand for them. I suppose that if I buy one, I'd better like it. Selling it might not be too easy. |
Hi, I'm Al, and I play a Schilke A2C cornet!
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Dr. Albert L. Lilly, III DM
Artist/Clinician for Vincent Bach Trumpets (Conn-Selmer)
Principal Trumpet, Hendricks Symphony (Avon, IN)
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Brassnose
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| Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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I’ll chime in again. As I said earlier, using a very deep mouthpiece is a very good option. I play a Curry TC on my rotary and it maintains a trumpet sound but keeps things nice n easy. However, it does NOT produce a cornet sound.
To go softer try a Curry TF or a GR FD (watch for the intonation ....) or a related piece. My Tilz with a deep cup is much (!) softer than the TC. My C is a Hüttl line 700, which sounds quite dark to start with.
_________________
2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier |
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Christian K. Peters
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Joined: 12 Nov 2001
Posts: 1530
Location: Eugene, Oregon
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| Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:25 pm Post subject: C trumpet versus C cornet |
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Hello all,
Great topic. So all instruments have their places. I have a C4, C3HD, C5L and an A2C. Owned an S22C for a short time a few years back. Nice horn, just was not what I was looking for at the time. I helped my church trumpet buddy find an A2C many years ago. I could not afford one at the time, and found a a vintage french C cornet to buy. Beautiful horn, but vintage sound and intonation. Finally bought an A2C of my own. So our church brass group has been playing together for years, and my friend and I have certain hymns and chamber works that we play either trumpet or cornet on. The cornet comes in useful when the two of us are sandwiched between the tympani and alto section on some of the numbers in the choir loft. We have more room for our stands and bells that way. The A2C is mouthpiece sensitive and can sound bright or round. I believe that it is a very versatile instrument.
Schilke C trumpets are great instruments. Each model has its' own attributes...hence my thinking that I need to keep 3 hanging around.
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Christian K. Peters
Schilke Loyalist since 1976 |
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Irving
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Joined: 11 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:48 am Post subject: |
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| I'd go for a C trumpet, since it is an instrument that you can use in many situations. A C cornet might be fun to have but it's use is limited. Bach is the standard C trumpet for orchestral use, but for church I might look around for an old Getzen Eterna C trumpet. It is a lighter horn that would be fine for church, since you won't be needing to pump out large volumes of sound. They have good intonation, and are inexpensive. They are no longer produced. |
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Grits Burgh
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 04 Oct 2015
Posts: 805
Location: South Carolina
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| Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Hi, I'm Al, and I play a Schilke A2C cornet! |
I don't know what this says about my sense of humor, but that really cracked me up.
_________________
Bach Stradivarius 37 (1971)
Schilke HC 1
Getzen 3810 C Cornet
King Master Bb Cornet (1945)
B&S 3145 Challenger I Series Flugelhorn
Life is short; buy every horn you want and die happy. |
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Grits Burgh
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 04 Oct 2015
Posts: 805
Location: South Carolina
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| Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Ed Kennedy wrote: | | The S22CHD is an orchestral instrument, designed to go up against the Bach large bore C trumpets. Another alternative would be the Schilke medium bore c trumpets: the C6 and C7. They would probably be special order but they are very easy blowing nice solo instruments. |
I am going to look for a music store that stocks these. I'd really like to try them out before buying.
_________________
Bach Stradivarius 37 (1971)
Schilke HC 1
Getzen 3810 C Cornet
King Master Bb Cornet (1945)
B&S 3145 Challenger I Series Flugelhorn
Life is short; buy every horn you want and die happy. |
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Grits Burgh
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 04 Oct 2015
Posts: 805
Location: South Carolina
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| Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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| kristiner wrote: | | My main Bb is an HC2, and I play an S22CHD in the orchestra. As Ed said, it's designed to produce a big, powerful sound. BUT - the Curry TC mouthpiece really tames that and produces a lovely, dark, velvety tone that is really close to a cornet. I've used that mouthpiece for soft solo parts and times that I need to play a C trumpet but really don't want to be exposed. I imagine that combination would be great for what you're looking for, and probably more versatile in the long run than a C cornet. |
Kris, thanks for posting. Several folks have mentioned that a C trumpet is used in more scenarios than a C cornet. I can see your point; the trumpet is the practical alternative. I think that is one of the reasons that I am on the fence. The trumpet is the more practical instrument, but there is something about the cornet that intrigues me.
_________________
Bach Stradivarius 37 (1971)
Schilke HC 1
Getzen 3810 C Cornet
King Master Bb Cornet (1945)
B&S 3145 Challenger I Series Flugelhorn
Life is short; buy every horn you want and die happy. |
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Grits Burgh
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 04 Oct 2015
Posts: 805
Location: South Carolina
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| Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:04 pm Post subject: Re: C trumpet versus C cornet |
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| Christian K. Peters wrote: | I believe that it is a very versatile instrument.
Schilke C trumpets are great instruments. Each model has its' own attributes...hence my thinking that I need to keep 3 hanging around. |
So, maybe the best idea is to get lots of horns? That's my kind of advice. 
When my wife wonders why I need another horn, I just tell her my philosophy is to buy every horn I ever wanted and die happy.
_________________
Bach Stradivarius 37 (1971)
Schilke HC 1
Getzen 3810 C Cornet
King Master Bb Cornet (1945)
B&S 3145 Challenger I Series Flugelhorn
Life is short; buy every horn you want and die happy. |
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Ed Kennedy
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 3187
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| Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:07 pm Post subject: Re: C trumpet versus C cornet |
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| Grits Burgh wrote: | | Christian K. Peters wrote: | I believe that it is a very versatile instrument.
Schilke C trumpets are great instruments. Each model has its' own attributes...hence my thinking that I need to keep 3 hanging around. |
So, maybe the best idea is to get lots of horns? That's my kind of advice.
When my wife wonders why I need another horn, I just tell her my philosophy is to buy every horn I ever wanted and die happy. |
Another victim of the dreaded "N+1" virus. |
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Grits Burgh
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 04 Oct 2015
Posts: 805
Location: South Carolina
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| Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Irving wrote: | | I'd go for a C trumpet, since it is an instrument that you can use in many situations. A C cornet might be fun to have but it's use is limited. Bach is the standard C trumpet for orchestral use, but for church I might look around for an old Getzen Eterna C trumpet. It is a lighter horn that would be fine for church, since you won't be needing to pump out large volumes of sound. They have good intonation, and are inexpensive. They are no longer produced. |
I'd love to have another brand new Schilke, but a used Getzen, either C trumpet or C cornet makes a lot more sense money wise. Getzen makes great horns. Besides, I'm not Maurice Andre. Nobody will be able to tell the difference between me playing different horns.
_________________
Bach Stradivarius 37 (1971)
Schilke HC 1
Getzen 3810 C Cornet
King Master Bb Cornet (1945)
B&S 3145 Challenger I Series Flugelhorn
Life is short; buy every horn you want and die happy. |
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Grits Burgh
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 04 Oct 2015
Posts: 805
Location: South Carolina
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| Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Irving wrote: | | I'd go for a C trumpet, since it is an instrument that you can use in many situations. A C cornet might be fun to have but it's use is limited. Bach is the standard C trumpet for orchestral use, but for church I might look around for an old Getzen Eterna C trumpet. It is a lighter horn that would be fine for church, since you won't be needing to pump out large volumes of sound. They have good intonation, and are inexpensive. They are no longer produced. |
I'd have to admit that is very good, practical advice - go for a good used C trumpet.
Ah, if only I would learn to take good, practical advice...
I think what I am leaning towards is finding a music store where I can try out different horns. If I find something that I fall in love with, well, then money is no object. But, if I can't try out the new instruments, I'll just go for a good deal on a used instrument and let availability and price dictate whether the horn is a trumpet or cornet. My head says the trumpet (with a deep mouthpiece) is the smart buy, but I think that I'd really like a cornet - just because.
_________________
Bach Stradivarius 37 (1971)
Schilke HC 1
Getzen 3810 C Cornet
King Master Bb Cornet (1945)
B&S 3145 Challenger I Series Flugelhorn
Life is short; buy every horn you want and die happy. |
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Brassnose
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2016
Posts: 2047
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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Grits, to be honest: assuming you are an amateur player that does not need to make money with your music, I think that is does not make much of a difference. Trumpets and cornets sound slightly different, yes, but I doubt that the majority of the audience would notice. I have gotten to a point (40 years into playing) that I just pick what I like and what suits me best.
Nowadays I mostly play my rotary and my bass trumpet. One does not play a rotary in a rock band? Who cares? It’s the horn I like and that I can deliver with. So: if you like the cornet, go with it.
_________________
2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier |
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deleted_user_687c31b
New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996
Posts: 0
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| Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Grits Burgh wrote: | I'd have to admit that is very good, practical advice - go for a good used C trumpet.
Ah, if only I would learn to take good, practical advice...
I think what I am leaning towards is finding a music store where I can try out different horns. If I find something that I fall in love with, well, then money is no object. But, if I can't try out the new instruments, I'll just go for a good deal on a used instrument and let availability and price dictate whether the horn is a trumpet or cornet. My head says the trumpet (with a deep mouthpiece) is the smart buy, but I think that I'd really like a cornet - just because. |
Given that you already own a (Bb) trumpet and cornet, have you considered trying those with the music you’re playing? They’re not the right key, but you could transpose a few pieces you intend to use your new C instrument for, and see if you like it more on trumpet or cornet. It’s not the same of course, but it may give you a new insight to break the stalemate... |
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