Chronically Sticking Second Valve

stumac · Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:27 pm Post subject:

Have you considered that the problem may not be in the casing but the valve itself, if it sticks while extracting is it nearer the top? The valve may have been dropped sometime and may be distorted slightly at the bottom.

Have you tried it in another position? If it still sticks this may be the problem.

Regards, Stuart.

LittleRusty · Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:37 pm Post subject:

krell1960 · Veteran Member Joined: 20 Jan 2020 Posts: 148

I've had good success with this product:

https://www.musiciansfriend.com//brass-instruments/magic-valve-piston-valve-cleaner

may be worth a try.

tom

although its tough to find these days.

Brad361 · Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 5:52 am Post subject:

If you really want it corrected, bite the bullet and send it to someone like Doctor Valve, or another recognized valve specialist. Yes, shipping is inconvenient and expensive, but how inconvenient is a glitchy valve? And how expensive is the instrument?

You can try any number of DIY fixes, there’s a good chance you won’t get anywhere, and might make it worse.

Brad
_________________
When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval

improver · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Mar 2004 Posts: 1455

I had a similar problem. If you Google the guy who shows you how to use toothpaste correctly in cleaning valves and casings. I've done it 5 times now and always cleaning out the whole horn. Each time when I do the toothpaste I put it in a cloth and work the valve in that toothpaste cloth as if you were lapping your valves. That's actually what your doing with the toothpaste. But you just do the casing too. Dont give up. Mine has gotten immensely better.

HERMOKIWI · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581

If the problem is especially evident right after you oil the valves then the oil you're using may be too heavy. There is such a thing as too much oil impeding the valve action. You may need a lighter weight oil for this horn.

Another possibility, which has been mentioned here, is that the second valve slide may be putting some tension on the valve. I have a Benge 5X that had an issue with the second valve hanging up. It was as mysterious as the problem you are encountering. After reading the responses here I tried removing the second valve slide, flipping it over and putting it back in upside down compared to how it was before. The sticking went away. Try it.
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HERMOKIWI

Manuel de los Campos · Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:00 am Post subject:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ29c7gPoZE Check out all of his videos
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Technology alone is a poor substitute for experience. (Richard Sachs)

etc-etc · Heavyweight Member Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6180

Phoenix864 · Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 9:02 am Post subject:

stumac - it's possible, though I did have the tech check the valve roundness/straightness as well. The sticking when playing occurs closer to the middle/bottom of the upstroke, and the slight suction feel when removing the piston occurs right at the beginning - after that it slides out smoothly. Piston straightness is definitely something I'll have checked when I get the horn to another tech. When you say "try in another position," that would be trying the 2nd valve in the 1st or the 3rd valve casings, right?

LittleRusty - thanks for the instructions. When cleaning I'm always quite worried about scratching the piston ports/casing, but it seems like doing this every so often is important to reduce buildup in the tubes. I'll have a look around to see if I can find a very soft/non-scratching swab.

krell1960/improver - thanks for the suggestions, but I really don't want to apply anything that is/might be an abrasive to the valves. I somewhat regret doing the first lapping, and most definitely do not want to take any more material off the casing or the pistons.

Brad361 - yeah, that would be the best option. The horn was around 4k new, I purchased for $2500. Frankly, I feel like I overpaid a bit for the horn, and would prefer not to drop tons more into it. So far, I've only put another $50-100 in at local techs. Between, packing, shipping, higher shop rates for well-known shops, and the possibility of the horn getting lost/damaged in shipping, I'm hoping to keep my efforts local. Definitely not planning on DIYing anything though - just basic stuff like cleaning and oil choice. Everything else I'll leave to a well-regarded tech.

HERMOKIWI - I'll definitely give flipping the 2nd slide a shot, in addition to pressing on it a bit. Oil for the horn has been a weird one - I started with Ultrapure regular, before trying Hetman 2 (no mixing with anything heavy either). The hangup occurred with both oils, so I tried Hetman 3 - same issue. The best results I had were with Hetman 4 (slide oil) during the winter. The sticking went away, but has begun to return with warming temps. I've been mixing Hetman 3 and 4 recently, but will probably try some lighter oils again (maybe something like Al Cass, as JayKosta suggested).

Manuel de los Campos - yikes - yeah, that's a bit much for me. If that's what the techs do, I'll leave it to their experienced hand. The outer tubes for the 2nd valve slide pop off for him in one out of 4 repairs? That sounds incredibly high.

etc-etc - sounds good, thanks for the info. That sounds like a good way to clean the pistons/casing - I'll definitely look into picking up some chamois for that.

Tony Scodwell · Heavyweight Member Joined: 17 Oct 2005 Posts: 1961

I have had a few of my older horns sent back to me with sticking valve complaints, mostly on the up stroke. These were all on Kanstul valve blocks and with my CarolBrass valve blocks being used now this problem has disappeared. What I've found is the bottom of the valve casing had gotten compressed due to the bottom caps being tightened a bit much over the years which slightly reduced the diameter of the bottom of the casing. My fix is to remove the valves and caps, put my long tapered mandrel into each casing gently from the bottom and measure the place where the mandrel ends up. It always ends up less on the sticking valve and simply apply slight pressure to equalize all three. On occasion a slight lap with Lava hand soap suds removes the years of valve oil residue. A 3M Scotch Bright pad soaked with water and dish detergent rubbed on the valves is a pretty good cleaner as well to eliminate lapping.

Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com

JayKosta · Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 9:44 am Post subject:

improver · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Mar 2004 Posts: 1455

Crazy, I just watched that video provided by hermokwi and took my first valve slide inserted it in my second valve slide pushed up a little and the remaining little catch is gone. Its moving like a new valve. Thx

cheiden · Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 9:06 am Post subject:

JayKosta · Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 9:30 am Post subject:

krell1960 · Veteran Member Joined: 20 Jan 2020 Posts: 148

dr_trumpet · Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:51 am Post subject:

Valve stem bent? I had a valve once where the downstroke was fine, but the upstroke hung up. We tried everything oil and cleaning related, lapping the valve, you name it. It turned out the valve stem had a very (and I mean very) slight bend that made the valve stick at the bottom of the valve when pressed, and it would hang.

The new valve stem was inexpensive and still works to this day.
_________________
Dr. Albert L. Lilly, III DM
Artist/Clinician for Vincent Bach Trumpets (Conn-Selmer)
Principal Trumpet, Hendricks Symphony (Avon, IN)
Arranger/Composer; Lilly Music

MarkD · Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2021 5:28 pm Post subject:

Steve Hollahan · Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2021 7:37 pm Post subject: Sticking valve

Is the valve loose? This causes sticking as valve doesn't go up and down "straight", but side ways.

Try to shake the valve or take off bottom cap and watch valve as you move the valve. You can see movement.
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Steve Hollahan
Bach 37, 229 C
Yamaha 9620 D-Eb, 741 C, Flugel
Kanstul 900 piccolo trumpet
Sculptured Recrafting Custom Instrument Repair
and Restoration
www.sculpturedrecrafting.com

MarkD · Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2021 7:40 pm Post subject:

Haven’t heard from the OP in about 3 months. Did he ever resolve his problem?

Phoenix864 · Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 11:11 am Post subject:

With the additional posts in this thread, I though I might update regarding the horn. Fortunately, after an ultrasonic cleaning, some additional alignment to the pistons and casing, and a valve oil switch, the valve is working much better. I previously tried a number of Hetman and Ultrapure weights, but the tech recommended La Tromba T2. I've been using it since the cleaning with good results.