• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

Soprano Flugelhorn in D - any information?



 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
PaulRoss&Co
New Member


Joined: 30 Mar 2021
Posts: 4
Location: London

PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:11 am    Post subject: Soprano Flugelhorn in D - any information? Reply with quote

Does anyone have any more information about this horn? It is by D.Ansingh & Co Zwolle Solist B V Dijk made in Rotterdam sometime between 1950-77. It is pitched in D and plays similar to a soprano cornet with a much darker tone. Would anyone have any idea what kind of music/ensembles this would have been used in. It seems quite a rare/unique instrument and plays rather nicely.


[/img]
_________________
“The silver, snarling trumpets 'gan to chide.”
- John Keats
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
delano
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 2285
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.lotsearch.net/lot/rare-and-unusual-soloist-flugel-style-instrument-by-d-ansingh-co-47427971?perPage=80&page=4

D. Ansingh is from Zwolle in The Netherlands and not from Rottterdam.
Is it really tuned in D? From the length and the length of the valve slides it seems to me to be a Bflat instrument.
The only instrument producing firm in Rotterdam has been Hakkert.
Most Dutch brands did not produce the horns themselves, most of the time they bought Belgium horns.
Your horn is probably not a flügel but a trumpet.
It's based on a trumpet model called the Charlier model, made and created by Mahillon in Belgium:

https://www.horn-u-copia.net/show.php?selby=+where+instrument%3D%22Trumpet%22+and+maker%3D%22Mahillon%22

But your horn is not a Mahillon, the Charlier setup was copied by other Belgium makers, one of them being De Prins, sometimes written as DePrins.
I am not 100% sure but De Prins used the name Solist for a lot of his horns.

https://www.horn-u-copia.net/show.php?selby=+where+instrument%3D%22Trumpet%22+and+maker%3D%22DePrins%22

Scroll down a bit for the Charlier model.

So your Ansingh flügel in D is probably a stencil De Prins Charlier trumpet in Bflat.

N.B. Ansingh also bought a lot of stencil horns in Markneukirchen, by Dölling.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
RETrumpet
Regular Member


Joined: 26 Jan 2021
Posts: 81

PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not a stencil of the Charlier as that horn uses a similar third slide geometry of a rotary trumpet and often had an A transposing valve. This is the same instrument as the old advertisement reprint in the back of his book.

https://www.horn-u-copia.net/show.php?selby=+where+instrument%3D%22Trumpet%22+and+maker%3D%22Ansingh++%22


However most Belgian instruments used what we now think of as a flugelhorn wrap for their trumpets up until the 1930's.

I have a DeVries with very similar features. Mine is definitely a trumpet.

That said, I have seen soprano flugels in Eb, but they have all had vertical valve slides and larger bell flares.
_________________
Bb: FrankenBach, '72 Committee, YTR-8335S(2), Conn 22B, King 2070SGX
C: Bach 229-MK slide/pipe
D/Eb: YTR-761
Picc: Stomvi Master, Couesnon Monopole
Cornet: Schilke A2C, '23 Buescher
Flugel: Modified Blessing Scholastic
Monette Mouthpieces
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
delano
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 2285
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did not say it is a Mahillon Charlier. IMO it is a De Prins Charlier copy for two reasons:
De Prins used often the model name 'Solist",

De Prins Charlier trumpets did not (always?) have the rotary third valve set up.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
RETrumpet
Regular Member


Joined: 26 Jan 2021
Posts: 81

PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, misunderstood. The word "stencil" has a specific meaning in my mind.
(i.e. identical geometry such as the VMI stencil of a Miraphone 186, etc....)

Cheers.
_________________
Bb: FrankenBach, '72 Committee, YTR-8335S(2), Conn 22B, King 2070SGX
C: Bach 229-MK slide/pipe
D/Eb: YTR-761
Picc: Stomvi Master, Couesnon Monopole
Cornet: Schilke A2C, '23 Buescher
Flugel: Modified Blessing Scholastic
Monette Mouthpieces
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
PaulRoss&Co
New Member


Joined: 30 Mar 2021
Posts: 4
Location: London

PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the replies and links, very helpful.
Here is a closer image

It is definitely pitched in D when I play it. It's quite small and the pipes are a lot smaller than a Bb trumpet. Perhaps originally it came with alternative tuning pipes. Only a flugelhorn mouthpiece fits the lead pipe.
_________________
“The silver, snarling trumpets 'gan to chide.”
- John Keats
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
delano
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 2285
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, I use stencil as certain branded horn like made by Conn but then sold under the name Wurlitzer or so.
I own a Verreijt (Dutch) cornet that is in fact a Belgium Van Engelen cornet with the name of Verreijt on it. I call that a stencil. Right or wrong?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
delano
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 2285
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As far as I know there only exist flügels in Bflat and in Eflat.


Edit: sorry, it's not a flügel.


Last edited by delano on Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:38 am; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JayKosta
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 1624
Location: Endwell NY USA

PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

delano wrote:
OK, I use stencil as certain branded horn like made by Conn but then sold under the name Wurlitzer or so.
I own a Verreijt (Dutch) cornet that is in fact a Belgium Van Engelen cornet with the name of Verreijt on it. I call that a stencil. Right or wrong?

-------------------------------
My understanding of 'stencil' is similar to yours -
A horn made by a company (and which appears identical/very similar) to a model that is sold by the maker using the maker's name, and the horn is sold under the name of a different company.

Whether the stencil horn is really 'identical' to one sold under the maker's name is less clear. There might be differences in material or QC requirements.

This is somewhat different from the situation of a maker 'outsourcing production' to a different company.
_________________
King Super 20 (S2 1048, HN White)
Bach 7
The 'next note' is the most important one.
Don't take a '20 minute mouthpiece' to a 1 hour session.
http://users.hancock.net/jkosta/2021_April_1_snow_web.jpg
April morning Surprise
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Shawnino
Veteran Member


Joined: 27 Jun 2020
Posts: 137

PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

D Fluegel ...

https://www.jlandressbrass.com/shop/Flugelhorns/p/1935-Couesnon-D-Flugel-x41800197.htm
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
delano
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 2285
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Funny
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Andy Del
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Posts: 2480
Location: sunny Sydney, Australia

PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a Cousenon Eb flugel that is in the traditional form. It came to me as a very ‘low’ Eb flugel, almost uselessly so. A judicious Trimpet of the tuning shank saw it become useable.

I did have a suspicion it was a higher pitched D flugel...

That said, the bell flair of the OP’s instrument looks more trumpet/ cornet than flugel, plus it is in an older trumpet shape.

D trumpet? Maybe. My very old Alexander D has an odd bell profile, very open and almost flugel like (still definitely a trumpet).

Cheers

Andy
_________________
so many horns, so few good notes...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Nonsense Eliminator
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 03 Feb 2003
Posts: 5194
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have no idea what this is. But Elgar Howarth's arrangement of Pictures at an Exhibition for the PJBE calls for flugelhorn in D for Schmuyle... so I guess it's a thing?
_________________
Richard Sandals
NBO ~ HSSB
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Voltrane
Veteran Member


Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 498
Location: Paris (France)

PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello,

Regarding the Couesnon, here is a link to a 1934 catalog:
http://jeanluc.matte.free.fr/cat/coues34/couesn34_018.jpg
No D Flugelhorn. May be created after but I never heard (or saw anywhere) about a D Couesnon flugelhorn (but out of tune Couesnon, yes! )
May be not the original leadpipe or only one of 2 leadpipes?
Édit:
I forgot: under the title Historique, it is written «  le bugle - en mi b ou en si b » (the flugelhorn- in Eb or Bb-). Seems difficult to believe in a Couesnon D flugelhorn from 1935 when you read this in a 1934 catalog. Seems more like a 121 or 122 model.
_________________
S’il n’en reste qu’un je serai celui là (Victor Hugo)
Je m’empresse d’en rire de peur d’avoir à en pleurer (Beaumarchais)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dstpt
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 14 Dec 2005
Posts: 776

PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry for a delayed post to this thread...Easter gig stuff...but hey! A GIG!!!!
----------
There's been a Couesnon flugel in D for sale at jlandressbrass.com for some time. It was built in 1935.

https://www.jlandressbrass.com/shop/Flugelhorns/p/1935-Couesnon-D-Flugel-x41800197.htm

I thought it would be an excellent choice for a principal player asked by the music director to play the Posthorn Solo from Mahler Sym. #3 (mvt. 3) on a flugelhorn! It could happen...probably has for any recording you hear it on flugelhorn. Lots to explore on YT...

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=mahler+symphony+3+posthorn+solo

I haven't listened to all of these, yet, but this one got my attention...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2_oop-pLk4

...on a Schagerl Killer Queen...gorgeously played. Notice he uses 1-3 for the 4th line D (although difficult to see with the backlight). Great choice to sit on top of the pitch on the 5th of the key. His pitch throughout is very in tune with itself. You might also notice the pitch differential when the muted tpt onstage enters at the end of his solo...very low to the offstage flugel, which we hear immediately in this video. Hmmm...wonder why that is? Of course, distance "lowers" the perceived pitch (google: Doppler Effect). That's why the offstage soloist will have to "push in" for his part, since it will be a lower sounding pitch on stage and in the hall. Is this a thread on Mahler's Posthorn Solo?! Sorry, that's how I see this flugel in D being used. AND, there's this YT video on that solo, which really offers some other options...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFeS3wEgpcU

It appears Nikolaj Viltoft's final choice was a C cornet (and he evidently did not have the luxury of a D flugel for exploration). Still, if you use a D-pitched horn (Stomvi 4v D cornet, a [rare] flugel in D, any other D tpt) or an E-flat-pitched horn, it will make the job easier. That is the primary orchestral excerpt that comes to mind, but the offstage solo to The Pines of Rome, or many other lyrical works may be applicable. Not sure if it would have been used in a brass band, but perhaps there were written parts in some European military band music at one time?
--------
And yes, I started replying prior to any other post and didn't see the other responses. Pardon the duplication of other's entries.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
delano
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 2285
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not a soprano but probably one in low D (or Eflat??):

https://link.marktplaats.nl/a1379455317
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group