• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

Underbite newbie question



 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Fundamentals
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Rsrfl
New Member


Joined: 10 Apr 2021
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:11 pm    Post subject: Underbite newbie question Reply with quote

I know that questions about underbite have an asked before. I’m in a different situation. I’m actually a flute player, but my eight-year-old is interested in playing the trumpet. He does have an underbite. I’m wondering if it’s worth starting at all? Or is this just going to be really rough uphill battle for him? Are there any well-known trumpet players who have underbites?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bflatman
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 01 Nov 2016
Posts: 720

PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have an underbite and I am doing fine.

I may not be the best and I may not ever be anywhere near the best but I have loved every minute I have spent learning trumpet and cornet and I would not have missed it for the world.
_________________
Conn 80a Cornet
Boosey & Hawkes Emperor Trumpet
Olds Fullerton Special Trumpet
Selmer Invicta Trumpet
Yamaha YCR 2330II Cornet
Selmer Student Trumpet
Bohland and Fuchs peashooter Trumpet
Boosey and Hawkes Regent Cornet
Lark M4045 Cornet
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Richard III
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 2237
Location: Anacortes, WA

PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Way too much thinking. Under bite. Overbite. Tooth a little bit out of alignment. Bunch of stuff that that held no one back in times long past. Just play that horn.
_________________
Richard

For Sale: Cornets: King Cleveland Superior.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
JayKosta
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 1875
Location: Endwell NY USA

PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It might be a problem if both the upper and lower teeth (and lips) cannot to be used to support the mouthpiece rim. It can be important to adjust and transition the amount of rim pressure between the upper and lower lips. That usually means the jaw needs to be controlled to provide and maintain upper and lower lip pressure on the rim.
Some people accomplish it by tilting the horn, but I think it is important to also do it by jaw adjustment. Not much actual jaw movement is needed.
_________________
going back to French horn!
Yamaha 668N, Holton DC mpc
The 'next note' is the most important one.
Don't take a '20 minute mouthpiece' to a 1 hour session.
http://users.hancock.net/jkosta/2021_April_1_snow_web.jpg
April morning Surprise
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Billy B
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 12 Feb 2004
Posts: 5755
Location: Des Moines

PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:34 am    Post subject: Re: Underbite newbie question Reply with quote

Rsrfl wrote:
I know that questions about underbite have an asked before. I’m in a different situation. I’m actually a flute player, but my eight-year-old is interested in playing the trumpet. He does have an underbite. I’m wondering if it’s worth starting at all? Or is this just going to be really rough uphill battle for him? Are there any well-known trumpet players who have underbites?


Take him to a qualified teacher.
_________________
Bill Bergren
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
theslawdawg
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 13 Oct 2008
Posts: 840
Location: Waikiki, Hawaii

PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:38 am    Post subject: Re: Underbite newbie question Reply with quote

.......
_________________
My go-to Trumpet and Flugel: Thane.
Greg Black MPs


Last edited by theslawdawg on Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
JVL
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 07 Feb 2016
Posts: 876
Location: Nissa, France

PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:25 am    Post subject: Re: Underbite newbie question Reply with quote

theslawdawg wrote:
Billy B wrote:
Rsrfl wrote:
I know that questions about underbite have an asked before. I’m in a different situation. I’m actually a flute player, but my eight-year-old is interested in playing the trumpet. He does have an underbite. I’m wondering if it’s worth starting at all? Or is this just going to be really rough uphill battle for him? Are there any well-known trumpet players who have underbites?


Take him to a qualified teacher.


No need. There are a bunch of TH members who are experts through the "Trumpet Mastery by Forum Posts" program!


+++
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Rsrfl
New Member


Joined: 10 Apr 2021
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:03 am    Post subject: Thank you! Reply with quote

Thanks for the feedback! Maybe we’ll try him out with a teacher and see how it goes!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JayKosta
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 1875
Location: Endwell NY USA

PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:21 am    Post subject: Re: Thank you! Reply with quote

Rsrfl wrote:
Thanks for the feedback! Maybe we’ll try him out with a teacher and see how it goes!

--------------------------------------
Since he is enthusiastic about playing trumpet, that's the way to go.
And before before getting a trumpet, ask the teacher if a short term loaner might be available. Rental is also an option. And used instruments can often be found on craigslist - good brand names are Bach, Yamaha, King, Blessing, Conn, Jupiter, Getzen, Olds, etc.
If you have friends who play trumpet, maybe one of them has a spare.
_________________
going back to French horn!
Yamaha 668N, Holton DC mpc
The 'next note' is the most important one.
Don't take a '20 minute mouthpiece' to a 1 hour session.
http://users.hancock.net/jkosta/2021_April_1_snow_web.jpg
April morning Surprise
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Robert P
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 28 Feb 2013
Posts: 1920

PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't say for sure but the upward angle of their horns would suggest to me that Al Hirt and Woody Shaw had a bit of an underbite. I personally find it awkward to play that way and have no real functionality and assume it's natural to some because their dental and jaw structure is very different than mine.

I'd say the only way to tell if they're going to have success is for them to try with competent instruction and see what happens.





_________________
Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C

Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo

Chinese Flugel
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Rsrfl
New Member


Joined: 10 Apr 2021
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:09 pm    Post subject: Thank you! Reply with quote

OK, you convinced me! I think at least at one of those trumpet players looks like they have an underbite. And he really really wants to give it a try. So we will! Thank you for all of the encouragement!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
delano
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 2473
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think the upward angle of the horn has anything to do with underbite.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
BudBix
Veteran Member


Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 431
Location: Atlanta, GA

PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most people have underbites. It's not a deal breaker at all.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dstpt
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 14 Dec 2005
Posts: 849

PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This online article…

https://lakeforestdentalarts.com/good-bite-bad-bite/

…states...

"About 70 percent of the population has some degree of an overbite.”

I believe that the bite, over or under, can very much be an influencing factor to horn angle. But I’ve been a professional player and teacher for many years with multiple degrees in music, so what would I know?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
delano
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 2473
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert P wrote:
I can't say for sure but the upward angle of their horns would suggest to me that Al Hirt and Woody Shaw had a bit of an underbite. I personally find it awkward to play that way and have no real functionality and assume it's natural to some because their dental and jaw structure is very different than mine.

I'd say the only way to tell if they're going to have success is for them to try with competent instruction and see what happens.






I think the second picture is Art Farmer.
BTW the article mentioned by dstpt tells us that 5 to 10 % of the population has an underbite. So If you are both right an underbite is very good for trumpetplayers. There are heaps of trumpetplayers that play with an upward angle, (surely more than 5 to 10 %) to mention a few besides the ones already mentioned: Miles Davis, Andrea Giuffredi, indeed Woody Shaw, Freddie Hubbard, Clifford Brown (maybe), Chris Botti and so on. Still I think that the upward angle has no direct relation with over- or underbite, it's just the right way of playing for a lot of players.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dstpt
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 14 Dec 2005
Posts: 849

PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delano wrote:
...I think the second picture is Art Farmer.
BTW the article mentioned by dstpt tells us that 5 to 10 % of the population has an underbite. So If you are both right an underbite is very good for trumpetplayers. There are heaps of trumpetplayers that play with an upward angle, (surely more than 5 to 10 %) to mention a few besides the ones already mentioned: Miles Davis, Andrea Giufreddi, indeed Woody Shaw, Freddie Hubbard, Clifford Brown (maybe), Chris Botti and so on. Still I think that the upward angle has no direct relation with over- or underbite, it's just the right way of playing for a lot of players.

Correction, delano; what I wrote was: "I believe that the bite, over or under, can very much be an influencing factor to horn angle." I've seen pros up close that have a definite overbite and yet play with an upward angle. They have to adjust their natural jaw position, but they found that it works for them. Nevertheless, in my experience, dental structure can play into how a person sets up and thus influence horn angle. I am also not saying that your list of jazz and commercial artists playing with an upward horn angle means they all have/had underbites. I quoted that article to bring attention to the statement by BudBix...

BudBix wrote:
Most people have underbites. It's not a deal breaker at all.

To the contrary, I’ve always understood the opposite, that most of the population has an overbite. Now the number of successful trumpet players over, say, the last century may or may not represent a 30-70 ratio of underbite to overbite, simply because of instances like those with overbites may have found jutting the jaw works better for them. All I’m saying is, in my experience as a teacher and having studied brass embouchure in hundreds of students and professionals through the years, that a person’s bite and other components of dental formation can be a determining factor in horn angle.

To the OP Rsrfl: Please note there are many individuals on TrumpetHerald with a wide variety of backgrounds. Some are professional players and/or have teaching experience, some are/do not. As a pro and a teacher, I’d echo what Billy B has already stated: "Take him to a qualified teacher.” However, I’d add this: There are some teachers that believe strongly that all players should play with a slight downward angle. For those with an underbite, this could be debilitating. I’ve seen it happen.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
delano
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 2473
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dstpt wrote:
delano wrote:
...I think the second picture is Art Farmer.
BTW the article mentioned by dstpt tells us that 5 to 10 % of the population has an underbite. So If you are both right an underbite is very good for trumpetplayers. There are heaps of trumpetplayers that play with an upward angle, (surely more than 5 to 10 %) to mention a few besides the ones already mentioned: Miles Davis, Andrea Giufreddi, indeed Woody Shaw, Freddie Hubbard, Clifford Brown (maybe), Chris Botti and so on. Still I think that the upward angle has no direct relation with over- or underbite, it's just the right way of playing for a lot of players.

Correction, delano; what I wrote was: "I believe that the bite, over or under, can very much be an influencing factor to horn angle." I've seen pros up close that have a definite overbite and yet play with an upward angle. They have to adjust their natural jaw position, but they found that it works for them. Nevertheless, in my experience, dental structure can play into how a person sets up and thus influence horn angle. I am also not saying that your list of jazz and commercial artists playing with an upward horn angle means they all have/had underbites. I quoted that article to bring attention to the statement by BudBix...


I did read you well but I was not sure what you meant by 'influencing factor'. On that point I think I agree with you if that means that the dental structure has influence for example on how much ankle is used. My point was more that playing with more or less an upward angle is a conscious choice.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
lschofield
New Member


Joined: 27 Jul 2020
Posts: 3
Location: Silver Spring, MD

PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Overbite or not, I'm sure a parent doesn't want to see that picture of Hirt blowing with a cigarette in his left hand and a martini on the stand.
_________________
2018 Schilke HC2
2017 Schilke Flugelhorn
2017 Tromba (blue plastic)
1975 Benge (LA)
1972 Olds Ambassador
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
JayKosta
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 1875
Location: Endwell NY USA

PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Upper / lower teeth and lip alignment (and 'roll'), and mouthpiece angle all affect what lip surfaces are exposed to the air flow.

It can affect the directional 'feeling' of the air flow - straight towards the bottom of the cup, or a feeling of the air being directed upwards or downwards in the cup.
The goal is to obtain the desired air vibrations / pulses, and not have the lips locked into a 'cannot move' (or 'moves wrong') position.
_________________
going back to French horn!
Yamaha 668N, Holton DC mpc
The 'next note' is the most important one.
Don't take a '20 minute mouthpiece' to a 1 hour session.
http://users.hancock.net/jkosta/2021_April_1_snow_web.jpg
April morning Surprise
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Fundamentals All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group