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What is the correct gap between MP and Leadpipe


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DrewB
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:52 am    Post subject: What is the correct gap between MP and Leadpipe Reply with quote

When you talk to most Trumpet players, they all have an opinion about gap. So, my question has two parts.
1 What is the gap that you have found best for slotting, intonation and overall playing?
2 How did you go about getting the gap optimized?
It seems like most of the MPs that I play have a gap around 1/4". I've tried the paper trick and it works sometimes.
Thx for your help


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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For me, a small gap (less than 0.10 inch) seems good.
I have seen a gap of 0.125 mentioned as being a sort of standard for Bach mpc and horns.

How did you do the 'paper method'?
One way could be to slowly add paper to increase the gap until the sound gets noticeable better or worse.
If several 'increases' were needed to get to 'worse' (and it didn't get better), then the gap without paper might be fine as is.
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DrewB
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:21 am    Post subject: What is the correct gap for a MP Reply with quote

Thx Jay,
I tried adding 1/4” pieces of paper. One helped on one MP, two got worse. Another MP got worse on one MP. The one that got better was an old, smaller shank, all the others are newer MPs with “normal” shanks
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

About 1/8” seems to work best on most of my horns.
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For your Schilke there should be no gap.

For other trumpets such as Bach there are many factors that will determine optimal gap, one of which is valve alignment.
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DrewB
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:33 pm    Post subject: What is the correct gap between MP and lead pipe Reply with quote

Ok, I get it..how did you achieve a zero gap! Did you use a spacer? Or did you have your MP’s cut and use sleeves? Almost everything I have has a gap of about 3/16”
Each manufacturer has their own solution. Which one works? Which one is the best? Which one stays in place?
I really appreciate your feedback
Thx
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Schilke mouthpieces typically have a slightly longer shank that tapers to a smaller diameter, so it inserts into the receiver farther. I’ve had them bottom out in Bach instruments before seating fully. I think they are set up to produce zero gap in Schilke instruments.
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’ve found gap has to do with resistance and is very personal. I use a Jim new gap adjuster all the way out to where there is almost no gap at all. I like very little resistance, making a correct gap should also improve sound to better match nodes that exist on horn(all different in my exp.) and when gap is right you can feel it in the response.
I just dialed in my silver flair and it’s like a different horn in a good way.
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use Bob Reeves mouthpieces.
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DrewB
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:58 am    Post subject: What is the correct gap between MP and Leadpipe Reply with quote

Thanks to all for your responses!
Billy B-what did Reeves do to their MP to get your MP to have the correct gap!
I’ll bet it was sleeves, but how do you know which sleeve to use?
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:03 am    Post subject: Re: What is the correct gap between MP and Leadpipe Reply with quote

DrewB wrote:
Thanks to all for your responses!
Billy B-what did Reeves do to their MP to get your MP to have the correct gap!
I’ll bet it was sleeves, but how do you know which sleeve to use?


You can use the paper trick to increase the gap. But if you need a smaller gap you will need to buy sleeves.

I would strongly suggest you have your valves aligned before you mess with the gap.

Call Reeves and ask to talk with John Snell.
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DrewB
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:34 am    Post subject: What is the correct gap between MP and Lead Pipe Reply with quote

thx Billy B
John and I go back...
We currently have this conversation going.
Yes, I need a smaller gap, but I wanted to see if anyone had a different take.
BTW, this morning, I tried an ole Schilke MP on my horn and the shank wall seems thinner, allowing the MP to insert further. The gap is then about 1/16” and it plays more open and much more free! Now to get my other MPs to play the same.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dale Proctor wrote:
Schilke mouthpieces typically have a slightly longer shank that tapers to a smaller diameter, so it inserts into the receiver farther. I’ve had them bottom out in Bach instruments before seating fully. I think they are set up to produce zero gap in Schilke instruments.

I got a Schilke Symphony that bottomed out in my Bach. That lead me to buying another that was cut for sleeves plus a big set of sleeves I picked up used. It was eye-opening how much the gap changes things. I definitely found a gap that worked much better than the stock piece that bottomed out. It's my understanding that optimum gap has to be tuned to the individual player. Buy a big set of sleeves and sell off what you don't wind up using. That or just keep them because you're a gearhead who can never have enough mouthpiece hardware.
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Bflatman
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have done testing on 6 instruments to discover the size of the problem. Both trumpets and cornets were tested

I inserted a plastic sharp ended stick into each instrument several times to a depth of 4 inches to discover the position and size of the mouthpipe tube wall and the step that would form a gap between it and the end of the mouthpiece.

I also inserted the same stick into several mouthpieces along a flat surface I used to represent the receiver wall to see if my tool could easily detect the mouthpiece tube wall and indicate its size as a comparison.

These are my results.

On 2 instruments a small obstruction was detected to the stick on 2 instruments an almost undetectable hesitation in movement was detected and on 2 instruments the receiver and mouthpipe formed a smooth bore with no detectable step or obstruction.

On each and every mouthpiece tested the mouthpiece end formed a clear and large obstruction much larger than anything detected in any instrument.

What this can only mean is that the mouthpiece is introducing a step into the bore on all those instruments tested. and on no instrument did the mouthpipe reach the same size of step as the size of the step the mouthpiece introduced.

That means there will always be a step that no gap removal tool or accessory can remove for the simple reason that the mouthpiece tube wall is much larger than the mouthpipe tube wall in the receiver.

You cannot argue that the mouthpiece gap should be adjusted if no such gap physically exists.

What you have instead and in reality is a large step that the mouthpiece alone introduces and which cannot be removed without doctoring the instrument where the venturi lies.

You might argue that my testing method was simply unable to detect the mouthpipe end but it correctly detected the mouthpiece end and showed that to be significantly larger than any obstruction in the instrument due to the mouthpipe end.

On some instruments the gap may exist and be removable, I have only tested 6 instruments available to me, but these results are consistent and are saying that many instruments do not have a removable gap.

A past member in here anecdotally has said some time ago that the olds special trumpet does not have a gap and the instrument bore with no mouthpiece in it is smooth.

Other members appear therefore to have similar experience to me in finding that some instruments do not have any detectable mouthpipe end that can form a gap with the mouthpiece.

The gap issue exists in some instruments of course many members attest to it and its successful resolution but simply assuming that the gap issue affects all instruments and players appears to be folly.

If the mouthpipe end exists and you can bottom out on it but the mouthpiece wall thickness is larger than that mouthpipe wall thickness all you do when adjusting the gap is moving a large step backwards and forwards in the receiver
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.austincustombrass.biz/gapchek-tm-from-warburton/
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bflatman wrote:
... I inserted a plastic sharp ended stick into each instrument several times to a depth of 4 inches to discover the position and size of the mouthpipe tube wall and the step that would form a gap between it and the end of the mouthpiece. ...

-----------------------
I'm confused - did you insert the stick into the mouthpiece receiver, or into the end of the leadpipe (by removing the tuning slide)?

In typical trumpet construction, there is a mouthpiece receiver soldered OVER the end of the actual leadpipe (the ID of the receiver is a slip-fit over the OD of the leadpipe. The distance from the open end of the receiver to the beginning of the leadpipe is usually slightly more than 1 inch. The ID of the receiver has the female taper to match the male taper of the mouthpiece shank.
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James Becker
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whether you call it gap, "pocket" (Vincent Bach's term), or mouthpiece engagement, it is a thing that can't be dismissed. You can do the math as GR suggests, or as Bob Reeves succinctly says "The right gap is the one that works".

Need I remind you, regardless of voice, mouthpiece engagement impacts the playability of ALL brass winds, be it cornets, flugelhorns, French Horns, Alto Horns trombones, euphoniums and tubas. Even in instances where no visible shoulder exists, mouthpiece engagement effects an instrument's focus and efficiency. Telescoping the mouthpiece inward widens the progression of the bore, while telescoping outward narrows the progression of the bore. It's really that simple.

Mic drop.
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Bflatman
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry about the confusion jay

I worked on the assumption that the receiver is slid over the mouthpipe so that a mouthpiece that inserts too far will hit the end of the mouthpipe.

This being the classic bottoming out where the end of the mouthpiece shank hits the end of the mouthpipe while the mouthpiece is still loose in the receiver.

I inserted a 5 inch long probe into the receiver in the same way and same direction as a mouthpiece is inserted and slid it along the inside of the receiver expecting it to hit the end of the mouthpipe solidly when it reached it.

I could feel the inside of the receiver and then the inside of the mouthpipe for a distance of 4 inches far beyond the end of the mouthpipe but it was very difficult to feel the end of the mouthpipe when it should have been easy, it is a hunk of metal stuck out after all.

The result was surprising to me. I can easily feel the end of the mouthpiece tube laid on a flat surface when sliding the probe up to it but I cannot easily feel the end of the mouthpipe in the receiver. The mouthpipe must be far thinner than the mouthpiece end.

Sometimes it is a slight bump and sometimes almost impossible to detect and sometimes completely impossible to detect.

I would have said it was an age of instrument thing but the two instruments I could not detect any bump at all on were a conn 80a designed in 1911 and built in 1953 and a yamaha ycr 2330 mk II built sometime around 1990 they were both smooth as a babys bottom from end of receiver all the way to 4 inches deep into the mouthpipe.

I trust james of course and it is an exercise worth doing but I dont think we can assume it will always be present on all instruments.

For credibility sake my test revealed the end of the mouthpipe approximately 15 mm inside the receiver revealed as a slight bump in my olds special trumpet which other players have said they were unable to detect on this model. I think my testing is sensitive enough for the task if it reveals things others tests cannot reveal.

I would estimate that the thickness of the mouthpipe is less than 1/4 of the thickness of the mouthpiece end on the olds special but a gap does exist in this model and can be adjusted. But even if the gap were adjusted to zero there would still be a substantial step at the end of the mouthpiece that cannot be adjusted or removed.

I dont think speaking of adjusting a gap or pit is good enough. How deep is it, is it a chamfer a depression or a slot.

If it is a hundredth of a millimeter deep which is possible considering it is almost undetectable that is around one two thousand five hundredth of an inch is that deep enough to compromise the instrument

I would have more confidence if this test were carried out by machine tool but even this simple manual test is revealing.

I think more work is needed on this topic.

I would add this, if the gap and its precision are so critical to tone and articulation why is a mouthpiece with a big dent in the end not preventing good playing and why are so many players playing on cornet pieces in trumpet converters in trumpets. A converter adds a massive extra gap.

I played on a converter today and it seemed ok to me.

We might also say if it helps you then use it, but this is the same argument in favor of lucky socks and rabbits feet.

I do not wish to claim the gap issue is like wearing lucky socks but I am hoping for something more convincing than is available now.
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James Becker
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bflatman wrote:
I trust james of course and it is an exercise worth doing but I dont think we can assume it will always be present on all instruments.

I think more work is needed on this topic.

I do not wish to claim the gap issue is like wearing lucky socks but I am hoping for something more convincing than is available now.


No. More work is is NOT needed regarding this subject. There's plenty of information online from Reeves, GR, Pickett-Blackburn and others. There's even a Doctoral thesis on mouthpiece gap published in the the ITG Journal if you care to seek it out.

Before you go on speculating weather it's a legitimate thing or not, I suggest you dig deeper.
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Bflatman
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi James

I dont think speculation is a bad thing in itself I will be looking into it as you suggest but I would have thought that if the height or depth of the gap were measured it would have been made visible before now.

I am not denying the effect of the gap just its description and acceptance as a gap.

Lets look at this dispassionately.

We know that a similar effect exists with the reverse leadpipe design shifting the step in the mouthpipe at the end of the tuning slide along the mouthpipe to a new position. this is known to positively affect intonation and blow

It also appears that the gap at the end of the mouthpiece is more of a step than a gap.

And this also is known to affect the intonation and the blow.

Might it not be the case that what we are calling a gap is really just another step like the tuning slide step with the same results achieved in shifting the step along the mouthpipe.

It may be possible that if it really is a step that is moved to a new position by adjusting the gap, and that change improves intonation, there may be a possibility of achieving even better intonation by moving the step deeper into the mouthpipe than hitherto considered by simply trying to get rid of or reduce the gap.

That is what I mean by further research.

By speculating we can step beyond existing research into new areas.

If we fixate on proving that the gap effect exists and stop there we might lose an opportunity of opening new optimal instrument design by redesigning the position of the step in the mouthpipe and its effect on the node in this critical position.

I would direct you to the anecdotal remarks that some members report of big intonation changes that occur when changing from a short shank cornet mouthpiece to a long shank cornet mouthpiece.

Are we not seeing a shifting of the step at the end of the mouthpiece much deeper into the mouthpipe by this means. And does this suggest that there is a step effect in this critical location that affects the node there.

The idea that two steps, one in the mouthpipe at the end of the mouthpiece and one step in the mouthpipe where the tuning slide ends and both affecting the nodes and improving intonation appeals to me.

There is a kind of beautiful simplicity about this and several different affects appear to be coming together here and this would not be revealed simply by examining the good work already done relating to the gap alone.

What are your thoughts. Could the reeves sleeves be fitted much deeper into the mouthpipe than its end and realise hitherto unseen benefits in intonation.

I am not an instrument maker so I bow to your knowledge in this.

We make improvements and push the boundaries of knowledge not by looking at answers that already exist to old questions but by asking the right new questions, so I am asking this new question in the hope it might be the right question.

What will moving the step deeper into the mouthpipe than the end of the mouthpipe do to the intonation.
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