View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
loweredsixth Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2005 Posts: 1844 Location: Fresno, California, USA, North America, Earth, Solar System, Orion Arm, Milky Way Galaxy, Universe
|
Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 5:10 pm Post subject: Blessing a "student" mouthpiece? |
|
|
I've been playing trumpet for 36 years now. I was a music major in college (stopped just a couple classes short of getting a B.A to focus on getting a B.A. in math instead). I'm just giving this background so that you know I'm well versed in playing the trumpet, and fully understand the ins and outs of trumpet gear.
One thing I'm curious about is what makes a brand of mouthpieces to be seen as "student" or beginner mouthpieces.
I've been on a Curry 5C off and on for the last 10 years or so, but I like to try other gear occasionally. I bought a Blessing 5B off eBay just out of curiosity, and I'll be damned if this thing doesn't play wonderfully. It's very similar to the Curry (cup shape seems somewhere between the Curry C and B), and the rim is slightly wider than the Curry. The backbore is definitely larger (more free blowing) than the Curry.
I'm very impressed with this mouthpiece that is considered by pretty much everyone as a cheap brand, or a good brand to buy for a child.
Considering there are no moving parts in a mouthpiece, it's overall design is fairly simple. There are only a handful of design elements that exist:
1. Quality of brass (or other metal) used
2. Quality of plating
3. Mathematical parameters of all the parts of the mouthpiece
4. Precision/accuracy/consistency of manufacturing
So, which of these elements can make the Blessing brand (which I believe are made by a large manufacturer in Germany who makes many other brands) NOT a professional mouthpiece?
#3 for sure is the general element that mostly defines each designers brand. I'm sure it is possible to design a really crappy playing backbore, or cup/backbore relationship that just doesn't work. All of the great mouthpiece makers we all love have spent an enormous amount of time designing the best possible mouthpieces they can imagine.
But, what if the Blessing designs are competent? And what if the manufacturer uses a high quality stock, and plating? And what if through using a CNC machine and an employee who monitors it for QC makes their output very precise and consistent?
Doesn't that make these a professional mouthpiece on the same level as all the others? What do you guys think? _________________ The name I go by in the real world is Joe Lewis |
|
Back to top |
|
|
HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581
|
Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 5:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Whether a mouthpiece is considered "professional" has nothing to do with the design of the mouthpiece or the materials or the plating (almost all mouthpieces have adequate materials and plating) and everything to do with the positioning of the brand by virtue of how the brand is marketed.
No mouthpiece manufacturer owns a monopoly on the dimensions, design, materials or plating of a mouthpiece. Any manufacturer can make any dimension, design, material and plating. The "hocus-pocus" is in the image the manufacturer develops for its mouthpieces through the marketing process.
Would your Blessing mouthpiece be any better if it had "Monette" or "AR Resonance" or "Bob Reeves" or "Lotus" or anything other than "Blessing" stamped on it? No, it would be the same mouthpiece even if nothing was stamped on it.
No one really cares if a mouthpiece is "professional" except those players looking for "miracle" mouthpieces who believe the hype associated with so-called "professional" mouthpieces or who, at least, hope the hype is true and hope the mouthpiece will give them some miraculous advantage (which it won't unless the player's previous mouthpiece was very wrong for the player).
To paraphrase a line in the musical 1776: "Most people with nothing would rather consider the possibility of becoming rich than face the reality of being poor." "Professional" mouthpieces depend on the foregoing statement being true as a basis for the marketing hype motivating players to buy those mouthpieces. _________________ HERMOKIWI |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Bflatman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Nov 2016 Posts: 720
|
Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
This is a very interesting question and quite excellent.
What makes a musical instrument or a mouthpiece a student grade.
I have a selmer trumpet engraved with the model name "STUDENT" It most definitely is not a student instrument it plays beautifully, and yet a professional trumpet player who tried to play on it called it a beginners instrument and chucked it back at me. I had just gigged it and sounded great on it and the audience loved it.
I once tried to discover the worst instrument in the world just to see how bad it really could be and my research showed it to be a chinese Lark.
So I searched for one and got hold of one and found it to be just fine and then I gigged it. A pro trumpet player then asked me if he could play on it so I let him and he played beautifully on it and got several ovations and said to me as he handed it back "Dont ever sell that instrument".
I have never played a blessing but I would have no hesitation in playing and gigging one.
I think there is a lot of bunk spoken about so called student grade instruments. I regularly gig a so called student grade yamaha ycr 2330 mk II and found it be an excellent player with a great tone.
I am not suggesting that pro grade gear is not worth the money of course it is, but I think some players have difficulty with lower cost instruments or lower cost mouthpieces and blame the instrument and the mouthpiece unfairly.
To the op I would say the fact that you find this mouthpiece to be a good player quite possibly indicates the high quality of your playing.
I find the more I improve the less problems I have making cheaper gear sound good.
I suspect that might simply be because it is good. _________________ Conn 80a Cornet
Boosey & Hawkes Emperor Trumpet
Olds Fullerton Special Trumpet
Selmer Invicta Trumpet
Yamaha YCR 2330II Cornet
Selmer Student Trumpet
Bohland and Fuchs peashooter Trumpet
Boosey and Hawkes Regent Cornet
Lark M4045 Cornet |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Jaw04 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 Dec 2015 Posts: 899 Location: California
|
Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Dominick Farinacci plays a Blessing mouthpiece. According to amazon, Blessing mouthpieces are made by Terry Warburton but "designed by Blessing."
There's nothing crappy about a Blessing mouthpiece, just no frills or custom options. I think they probably just copied some Bach mouthpieces but that's just a hunch. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
deleted_user_687c31b New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0
|
Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 11:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
In some of the stories of the final years of the Olds company, there’s mention about how much time was spent assembling an instrument. The ‘professional’ instruments received care and attention by a more experienced builder, whereas the ‘student’ models were thrown together with whatever part fitted (and even discarded if matching parts werent found quickly enough because spending time searching for the right part meant they’d lose their profit margin).
I imagine that this pretty much applies to mouthpieces as well. It’s not just the actual manufacturing, but the time spent researching as well. That’s not to say that cheap equals garbage (some of the Olds student models are very fine instruments for example). Many items that come with options, refinements or customizations tend to be more expensive and have diminishing returns for the additional costs. A washing machine with optional blue tooth remote controls will not make your laundry cleaner than one without, and it will not be an improvement for everyone. In that sense I agree that ‘professional’ and ‘student’ are category labels more than they are an indication of what skill level they should be used at. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8333 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
|
Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
Blessing mouthpieces are copies of various Bach sizes. I think Warburton was involved in either production or design at one point.
I think they were produced by Lausmann in Germany. I found them to be high quality and played nicely. I like their 3C better than the current version of the 3C that Bach is using.
They're no more beginner mouthpieces than any - Bach or Yamaha or whatever.
I don't know about the current ones, they might be the same. I acquired mine before Blessing was bought by St Louis Music and was still based in Elkhart.
They were quite reasonably priced as well. You can't go wrong with them, in my opinion. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
|
Back to top |
|
|
PMonteiro Veteran Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2020 Posts: 130 Location: Hudson Valley
|
Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 3:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Blessings are pretty much identical to their equivalent Bach sizes. Never had an issue with build quality. I'm led to believe that Blessing brass is very slightly softer, since I find it easier to put damaged Blessing shanks back in round than Bach. I also feel Blessings play slightly tighter and brighter than Bachs, but the difference is small.
I think the truly "student" mouthpieces are the ~$10 no-name brand pieces. These have plating that wears down faster, are often bigger or smaller than the marked size, and have non-standard throats and backbores. Some of these can play very decently, but Blessing is far higher quality. _________________ YTR-6335HSII
YTR-2320
Accord in C |
|
Back to top |
|
|
zaferis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Posts: 2319 Location: Beavercreek, OH
|
Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 5:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I don't think that in brass world we have "beginner" mouthpieces.. woodwinds have mouthpieces that are designed to aid beginners with throat and face variations - and are made with less expensive materials.
Brass players have mouthpiece like objects, cheap copies, ok playable makes, good to great stock mouthpiece, and the custom made ones.
I think brass mouthpieces range in cost and design differences. Cheap ones are made with lesser quality brass, and plating, designs are generic, specs are of questionable consistency, and playability questions arise.
Name brand mouthpieces have better more researched or historic designs, quality brass, well plated with a high quality silver or gold, quality control is higher and variations for specific desired affects are available while supporting the original features.
The Bach 7C that was shipped for years with new trumpets was done so because it's middle of the road.. medium size, reasonable C cup - a well balanced piece that is a logical place to start for most.
Not a "Beginner" mouthpiece. _________________ Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman |
|
Back to top |
|
|
HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581
|
Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 6:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
zaferis wrote: | Cheap ones are made with lesser quality brass |
What is the difference between "lesser quality brass" and "better quality brass" and how does the difference affect performance?
The current scrap value of brass ranges from $.50 to $1.05 per pound (brass shell casings are $.81 per pound). So the cost of the brass in a mouthpiece is pennies whether it's "lesser quality brass" or "better quality brass." The quality of the brass (whatever that means) would not seem to be a significant factor in the difference in the cost of production between a cheap mouthpiece and an expensive mouthpiece.
Incidentally, the scrap value of bronze is currently $1.23 per pound.
The cost of materials in most silver plated mouthpieces is probably under $1.00. The labor, machinery, packaging, shipping and marketing expenses are responsible for almost all the cost of a mouthpiece. _________________ HERMOKIWI |
|
Back to top |
|
|
loweredsixth Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2005 Posts: 1844 Location: Fresno, California, USA, North America, Earth, Solar System, Orion Arm, Milky Way Galaxy, Universe
|
Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I’m not talking about specific sizes being considered beginner mouthpieces. I’m talking about brands.
For example, here’s what WWBW has to say about Blessing mouthpieces.
The Blessing Company makes an economical student mouthpiece that is faithful to the original specifications.
And Pro Winds.
Blessing mouthpieces are a solid choice for any brass student as they start their path on a lifetime of musical enjoyment. _________________ The name I go by in the real world is Joe Lewis |
|
Back to top |
|
|
deleted_user_687c31b New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0
|
Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Maybe the retailers call it a 'student mouthpiece' to explain the higher price of the 'non-student' mouthpieces. To convince people to skip the cheaper mouthpieces and go straight for the 'professional' (= expensive) ones. Kinda like the sales trick with popcorn where the medium size bucket is overpriced to get the customer to buy the large one instead ('cause it's such a good deal).
Blessing doesn't call their mouthpieces 'student' do they? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Jaw04 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 Dec 2015 Posts: 899 Location: California
|
Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
loweredsixth wrote: | I’m not talking about specific sizes being considered beginner mouthpieces. I’m talking about brands.
For example, here’s what WWBW has to say about Blessing mouthpieces.
The Blessing Company makes an economical student mouthpiece that is faithful to the original specifications.
And Pro Winds.
Blessing mouthpieces are a solid choice for any brass student as they start their path on a lifetime of musical enjoyment. | It's just marketing, Blessing mouthpiece is not a "luxury" company, it's marketed to students emphasizing consistency and affordability as opposed to special design features or customized options. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Tony Scodwell Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2005 Posts: 1960
|
Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:14 am Post subject: Unknown mouthpiece brands |
|
|
I currently have listed in the TH Marketplace a F. Schmidt TRM 5C trumpet mouthpiece. It is a beautifully made mouthpiece in the original box with the black velvet embroidered bag it comes with. I have much experience with various Bach 5C's from different vintages and the F. Schmidt is as good as any of those. Absolutely no one has inquired about it. With a list price of $87 you might imagine it would be of good quality, which it certainly is, but the name is mostly unfamiliar to players proving the point of the importance of marketing.
Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com |
|
Back to top |
|
|
ghelbig Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 May 2011 Posts: 908 Location: Reno, NV
|
Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
zaferis wrote: | ... specs are of questionable consistency ... |
By that definition Bach made beginner mouthpieces.
I've seen some cr@p mouthpieces. I've even seen a Purviance where the throat does not align between the cup and the backbore. But I've never seen a beginner mouthpiece.
Gary. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
zaferis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Posts: 2319 Location: Beavercreek, OH
|
Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:58 am Post subject: |
|
|
HERMOKIWI wrote: | zaferis wrote: | Cheap ones are made with lesser quality brass |
What is the difference between "lesser quality brass" and "better quality brass" and how does the difference affect performance? |
"Brass is the generic term for a range of copper-zinc alloys with differing combinations of properties, including strength, machinability, ductility, wear-resistance, hardness, colour, electrical and thermal conductivity, hygiene and corrosion resistance."
..change one thing, change everthing... a very firm/hard brass will undoubtedly respond differently than a softer mix. _________________ Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|