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I want to remove Lacquer



 
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ozmuha
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Joined: 09 Apr 2021
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Location: New York City

PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:04 am    Post subject: I want to remove Lacquer Reply with quote

Hi Tpt-Heralders:

My Xeno is lacquered and has acquired dark blemish blotches in and outside the bell. I want to remove them. I believe the only solution is to strip the lacquer and use a silver polish to get rid of them.

If I do this will it dramatically effect the sound of the trumpet? Why is lacquer applied to the finish of a horn anyway?

Thanks for any advice you can provide.

Ozier
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Hackl Trumpet ERVT 2
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silver horns are almost never lacquered. So if your horn is lacquered removing lacquer and applying silver polish probably shouldn’t be the first thing to try.

Many reasons for lacquer. Some are:

Provide a protective layer between the human’s contact points and the metal to prevent reactions either in the human, think metal allergies, or metal, salts reacting to tarnish or damage.

To prevent tarnish due to environmental issues.

Prevent scratching the metal.

Make an instrument look pretty.
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walldaja
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Joined: 23 Aug 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I doubt that you will notice any difference in the way your horn plays after removing the lacquer.

I presume you have a gold lacquered horn, so after the lacquer is removed use BRASS polish rather than silver polish.

If you have a silver horn, I find it unlikely that it has any lacquer on it and just polishing with silver polish would take care of it.

Lacquer is sprayed on an instrument after the brass is brightly polished to preserve that polished appearance. Without a coating (like lacquer) the polished brass will become darker and darker. So instead of just having a few dark blotches you may have an entire bell looking like that.

Be careful of what you use to remove the lacquer both from a health perspective and damaging to the horn. There are many videos on YouTube of folks de-lacquering their instruments.

Best wishes!
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etc-etc
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pictures could help to tell what the situation is (some Yamahas are susceptible to red rot, particularly on the tuning slide).
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Beyond16
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While it's certainly true silver plated horns usually don't have lacquer, there are exceptions. King Silver Tone/Silver Sonic is one (OK, not plated but still silver). Raw brass tarnishes quickly. Copper is the worst. Unlacquered silver holds its shine a long time for me. Paint remover is the easiest way I know of to remove lacquer. Red rouge is good for polishing, and aluminum oxide too. Silver is easy to polish.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing to keep in mind is that most polishes remove a small amount of metal each time you use it. Back in my the dark ages, when I was starting, silver polishing clothes were sold that included an rouge impregnated cloth.

Compulsive users of the rouge cloth could be spotted by the missing silver plate on their horns.
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have any of you guys actually compared using brass polish vs. silver polish? I bet you haven't. I have used both Brasso and 3M Tarnishield on raw brass. Tarnishield is by far the better choice, as it produces a much finer finish with much less effort. The best use of Brasso, IMO is to brighten copper. It works almost instantaneously.

OP, your Xeno is most likely coated with some form of polyester/acrylic resin, as opposed to the nitro-cellulose lacquers of old. Each manufacturer keeps a strip tank on hand to remove these modern finishes when things don't go right and have to be redone. I have it on good authority that those stripping chemicals are extremely expensive to dispose of because they are extremely hazardous. Make sure you do some research before attempting to strip your horn. Talk to someone who has the knowledge to do it.
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Yamahaguy
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you are in NYC, then I highly recommend taking it to Josh Landress.
Having it professionally done by him (or his team) will not only make it
look amazing, but not change the sound in the least.
https://www.jlandressbrass.com/
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walldaja
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Worth stopping by Josh's place just for a visit!
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:37 am    Post subject: Re: I want to remove Lacquer Reply with quote

ozmuha wrote:
Hi Tpt-Heralders:

My Xeno is lacquered and has acquired dark blemish blotches in and outside the bell. I want to remove them. I believe the only solution is to strip the lacquer and use a silver polish to get rid of them.

If I do this will it dramatically effect the sound of the trumpet? Why is lacquer applied to the finish of a horn anyway?

Thanks for any advice you can provide.

Ozier


Lacquer holds the high polish of the metal. Yamaha lacquer is very tough stuff, you'd have to take it to a shop that uses a hot stripping solution. And it will look far worse than it does now. I'd take it to a repair person to look at the blemishes you mention. It's possible they are under the lacquer. If that's the case, the lacquer would be buffed off and the spot revealed would be lacquered to stop it from tarnishing. The color will be different and probably obvious.

I usually advise people to leave well enough alone.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:50 am    Post subject: Re: I want to remove Lacquer Reply with quote

yourbrass wrote:
ozmuha wrote:
Hi Tpt-Heralders:

My Xeno is lacquered and has acquired dark blemish blotches in and outside the bell. I want to remove them. I believe the only solution is to strip the lacquer and use a silver polish to get rid of them.

If I do this will it dramatically effect the sound of the trumpet? Why is lacquer applied to the finish of a horn anyway?

Thanks for any advice you can provide.

Ozier


Lacquer holds the high polish of the metal. Yamaha lacquer is very tough stuff, you'd have to take it to a shop that uses a hot stripping solution. And it will look far worse than it does now. I'd take it to a repair person to look at the blemishes you mention. It's possible they are under the lacquer. If that's the case, the lacquer would be buffed off and the spot revealed would be lacquered to stop it from tarnishing. The color will be different and probably obvious.

I usually advise people to leave well enough alone.

OP, note that YourBrass is a professional brass tech, where most of the rest of us just trumpeters.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shofarguy wrote:
Have any of you guys actually compared using brass polish vs. silver polish? I bet you haven't. I have used both Brasso and 3M Tarnishield on raw brass. Tarnishield is by far the better choice, as it produces a much finer finish with much less effort.

Nothing beats real world results.

I based my post on the knowledge that silver cleaners often include chemicals to remove the sulphur from the tarnish, silver sulfide (Ag2S).

The piece I was missing, and found now with a little googling, was that some forms brass tarnish are reactions with sulphur. Which might be why it worked for you. Or it could be that it always works.

Going forward I will leave it up to the pros and non-pros who have actually used it.
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Ed Kennedy
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you have a silver Xeno then it is VERY unlikely to be lacquered. Take it to a shop (Josh Landress) and have it evaluated. If silver polish doesn't do the job then a repair tech can hit it lightly with the rouge wheel. They may also have a chemical dip that will suck out the tarnish. If you can find an old style Blitz cloth with the red rouge on the inside that may well take care of it. (It is a bit messy).
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