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What makes a bad horn bad?


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spitvalve
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dershem wrote:


I have been thinking about doing that, but ...
An old friend had a trumpet made into a lamp, and the 2nd valve was the switch. I won't build one until I can figure out how to do that.
Ideas?

Been pondering that myself. It would be really cool.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:25 pm    Post subject: Re: horns Reply with quote

CalicchioMan wrote:
Amen James!

Scott Wiltfang

With all due respect to a top level and highly respected brass technician and while the answer is technically correct and sufficient for those at his level, it really doesn’t add much to the conversation for us mere mortals.

Although, if James were to share what he knows, or if one of us lazy butts researched and collated what he has already shared, it would probably need a couple of volumes to contain it all.

Please be assured that I highly value James’ participation in this forum.
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jmock
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There have been some great responses on this thread and I appreciate them all.
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deleted_user_687c31b
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dershem wrote:

I have been thinking about doing that, but ...
An old friend had a trumpet made into a lamp, and the 2nd valve was the switch. I won't build one until I can figure out how to do that.
Ideas?


You may need a switch like this one:

https://lumico.be/shop/diverse/schakelaars/snoerschakelaar-wit-drukknop-wit-1-polig/

which turns both on and off by pushing it in.
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This has been a good thread, so far. Maybe, we should do a sister thread called, "What makes a great horn?"

I have two or three things to add:

1) I used to own a 1976 Benge 5X that I thought was the bomb and it was in many respects. When I finally had Kanstul refit the valve pistons and slides and Flip Oakes had performed his Total Enhancement and valve alignment on it, it was the best it could be. Also, I had purchased some Reeves Sleeves to dial in the gap of a few of my favorite mouthpieces.

Still, that particular trumpet had one flaw. It could not respond to light articulation at low dynamics in order to begin the first note in a phrase. It needed to be "kick started" or it simply refused to generate a standing wave. I asked Byron Autrey about it and he didn't have an answer other than some individual bells are not as sensitive as others.

That Benge was fantastic for outdoor or arena playing and had blockbuster projection, to be sure. It was no good for small ensemble work, though.

2) A friend had brought both a Kanstul 700 and a Getzen 700 to a rehearsal at my church. He was sharing them with my friend, Rex Merriweather, during a break. I heard Rex demonstrate how the Getzen would lose resonance on certain notes of the scale, whereas the Kanstul would resonate consistently across its whole range.

I don't have any idea why the Getzen was like that. It may have had worn valve casings or valve alignment issues. I only know that it was apparent when Rex pointed out the inconsistencies.

It reminded me of another friend who plays violin professionally. He shared his experience of going to a high-end instrument retailer, convincing him to bring out a few "good instruments." Think $50K-$100K+ violins. It was evenness of resonance through every note and the richness of sound that made one violin worth more than another.

These experiences taught me a little more about listening than I had considered before.
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JoseLindE4
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding quality of finish and greatness to the horn, my favorite and best playing horn that I own is an early 60s Mount Vernon Bach Bb. The horn responds so beautifully to the sound in my head in pretty much any setting. It also has several noticeable blobs of solder inside the slides. I could have it fixed, but I’m afraid of losing that magic. Trumpets are weird.
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PMonteiro
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my experience lower-quality horns tend to blow much tighter. Mouthpiece receiver problems (either wobbling or getting stuck) are also common.
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etc-etc
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hibidogrulez wrote:
dershem wrote:

I have been thinking about doing that, but ...
An old friend had a trumpet made into a lamp, and the 2nd valve was the switch. I won't build one until I can figure out how to do that.
Ideas?


You may need a switch like this one:

https://lumico.be/shop/diverse/schakelaars/snoerschakelaar-wit-drukknop-wit-1-polig/

which turns both on and off by pushing it in.


Given that trumpets are made from brass, that might be not such a great idea. Has there ever been an accident where a trumpet turned into a lamp had the the hot wire come into contact with the lamp/trumpet body?
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

etc-etc wrote:
hibidogrulez wrote:
dershem wrote:

I have been thinking about doing that, but ...
An old friend had a trumpet made into a lamp, and the 2nd valve was the switch. I won't build one until I can figure out how to do that.
Ideas?


You may need a switch like this one:

https://lumico.be/shop/diverse/schakelaars/snoerschakelaar-wit-drukknop-wit-1-polig/

which turns both on and off by pushing it in.


Given that trumpets are made from brass, that might be not such a great idea. Has there ever been an accident where a trumpet turned into a lamp had the the hot wire come into contact with the lamp/trumpet body?


Have you ever seen a brass lamp that was not a trumpet? Or a metal lamp? Most of them are. There are basic rules for wiring any fixture. Obey those principles and all will be well.
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There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

etc-etc wrote:
hibidogrulez wrote:
dershem wrote:

I have been thinking about doing that, but ...
An old friend had a trumpet made into a lamp, and the 2nd valve was the switch. I won't build one until I can figure out how to do that.
Ideas?


You may need a switch like this one:

https://lumico.be/shop/diverse/schakelaars/snoerschakelaar-wit-drukknop-wit-1-polig/

which turns both on and off by pushing it in.


Given that trumpets are made from brass, that might be not such a great idea. Has there ever been an accident where a trumpet turned into a lamp had the the hot wire come into contact with the lamp/trumpet body?

Sure, hence the term “killer solo”.
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deleted_user_687c31b
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

etc-etc wrote:
Given that trumpets are made from brass, that might be not such a great idea.

Theoretically you could use the valve to close the circuit but you shouldn't do so, the switch is a safer option. You connect the switch to the wire as normal, and place it in the valve casing. Both the switch, the wires and the connection should be insulated. At no point should there be any exposed wires, and if you don't know how to achive that, then the answer is that you shouldn't attempt it.

Also, it'll require sawing off a part of the valve to make room for the switch, so make sure you only use it on those cheap junk horns that don't deserve the label 'trumpet' to begin with.

etc-etc wrote:
Has there ever been an accident where a trumpet turned into a lamp had the the hot wire come into contact with the lamp/trumpet body?

That's a question best asked in this thread.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dershem wrote:
... An old friend had a trumpet made into a lamp, and the 2nd valve was the switch. I won't build one until I can figure out how to do that.
Ideas?

-------------------------------
Tinkering such as that is certainly possible using a small push-switch. But it would likely involve some careful wiring and care for good insulation. NO electrical contact with the metal of the horn itself. Instead of using the actual 2nd valve piston, I'd use the STEM and BUTTON and attach to a suitable size piece of wood dowel for inside the casing. Making a 'fake piston' for the 1st valve might allow the wiring to go in through the bell, with no wiring exposed otherwise.
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe it’s just me but while I like trumpets I find the idea of a trumpet lamp rather awkward. There are people over here who try to sell them through the usual marketplaces and I always find the looks quite irritating. I’d rather have a real nice lamp.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
dershem wrote:
... An old friend had a trumpet made into a lamp, and the 2nd valve was the switch. I won't build one until I can figure out how to do that.
Ideas?

-------------------------------
Tinkering such as that is certainly possible using a small push-switch. But it would likely involve some careful wiring and care for good insulation. NO electrical contact with the metal of the horn itself. Instead of using the actual 2nd valve piston, I'd use the STEM and BUTTON and attach to a suitable size piece of wood dowel for inside the casing. Making a 'fake piston' for the 1st valve might allow the wiring to go in through the bell, with no wiring exposed otherwise.

A delrin rod would probably work better than wood.

I am not arguing but I don’t understand the last sentence in your post. Why would the first valve need to be replaced? The wire should just follow the same path as the airflow used when playing an open, all pistons up, note. Following that path the wire can go from leadpipe to bell uninterrupted or exposed.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LittleRusty wrote:
... Why would the first valve need to be replaced? The wire should just follow the same path as the airflow used when playing an open, all pistons up, note. Following that path the wire can go from leadpipe to bell uninterrupted or exposed.

-------------------------
Yes, derlin or other 'plastic' would work fine.
Doing the 1st valve modification would probably make 'snaking' the wiring easier because of better visibility and additional working-room of not having the piston in the casing. I'm thinking about the use of forceps & probes via the bottom of the valve casing.

But yes, it certainly could be done with the piston in place - but not as easily for me.
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brassnose wrote:
Maybe it’s just me but while I like trumpets I find the idea of a trumpet lamp rather awkward. There are people over here who try to sell them through the usual marketplaces and I always find the looks quite irritating. I’d rather have a real nice lamp.

I'm kind of with you on that.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crazy Finn wrote:
Brassnose wrote:
Maybe it’s just me but while I like trumpets I find the idea of a trumpet lamp rather awkward. There are people over here who try to sell them through the usual marketplaces and I always find the looks quite irritating. I’d rather have a real nice lamp.

I'm kind of with you on that.

Me three.
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deleted_user_687c31b
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brassnose wrote:
Maybe it’s just me but while I like trumpets I find the idea of a trumpet lamp rather awkward.


4th. The only reason I suggested a way to make the light switch was because the topic was Chinese tlo's, not actual trumpets. I can't imagine how many decent instruments have been destroyed by people who don't even know that not every instrument is called a clarinet.
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