Does changing the rubber valve rings change alignment of val

improver · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Mar 2004 Posts: 1455

Does changing valve rubber rings on top change alignment?

Tpt_Guy · Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 6:51 am Post subject:

If you're asking what I think you're asking about, then if the thickness varies the valve alignment can change.

The pads on the top caps can change alignment on the downstroke - sometimes these are located on the underside of the finger buttons. The pads around the valve stems can change alignment on the upstroke.
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JayKosta · Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:47 am Post subject:

The felt or bumper on the top of the top valve cap controls how far down the valve 'top button' can be depressed. So if the amount of depression changes, then the 'valve down' alignment will also change.

When I tinker with valve alignment, I make adjustments by 'sound quality', not by attempting measurements or how the alignment looks. My goal is to have good (and similar) sound quality when using all the various valve combinations.

There might also be felts on the underside of the valve button, they also control how far the button can be depressed.

Another adjustment is small 'spacer washers' that go around the button's threaded rod and the top of the valve stem - those spacers adjust the length of the downstroke (their OD is about the same as the valve stem itself).

It is not required that all of the buttons be exactly level when in the UP or DOWN position.
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Winghorn · Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:55 am Post subject:

On most horns you can check the valve upstroke by pulling the the third valve and the third valve slide.

Using a flashlight, look into the lower slide receiver tube and you will be able to see the port in the second valve sitting in the port in the casing. If the two ports line up, the alignment is good. If not adjust the pad thickness and make sure the first and third valve pads are the same thickness as the adjusted pad.

The pads I am talking about are obviously the ones around the valve stems and under the valve caps.

Steve

Divitt Trumpets · Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:45 pm Post subject:

Proper alignment needs to take all 6 holes on each casing in to account.
Some instruments aren't made in a way to be able to actually line up all the holes the way you would want them to be. Sometimes the exit and intake port on one side of the piston line up well, but on the other side, not so much.
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JayKosta · Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:22 am Post subject:

Winghorn · Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:53 am Post subject:

My horns play their best when the ports I can see are visually lined-up. I have had more precise alignments done and haven't noticed much difference.

Something to think about:

When a new instrument design is developed it is usually put through its paces by professional players who help finalize the design and suggest changes before the new model is released to the public. Modifications are then made until the professionals are satisfied with the way the new design plays.

I would suggest that these players are playing and testing horns that have the typical factory alignment of the final production instruments. This only makes sense, because the factory would want its production instruments to play the way the professionals prefer. So...

Why do people assert that a brand new trumpet needs to have its valve ports lined up more critically than the way they come from the factory? The pre-production testers obviously liked the way the horns played with the factory alignment.

Is it possible, then, that a new instrument could play worse with a precision valve alignment? Could a horn end up being more open than the designers intended? Is perfect alignment and a more open blow always a good thing in the context of how an instrument plays?

I don't know, but I have wondered about this.

My Severinsen Destino trumpet was played tested and approved by Doc before I bought it. It is my lifetime horn. Should I muck around with a precision valve alignment (some of which involve unsoldering the spring basket and rotating the valve) or keep the horn just as it is?

I think that JayKosta may well be right that valve alignment is more properly based on testing the sound and response, rather than on mechanical precision.

Divitt Trumpets · Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:20 pm Post subject:

Winghorn · Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:59 pm Post subject:

Divitt Trumpets-

Thanks for your response and the information you provided! I guess I assumed there were quality control checks that kept production instruments reasonably within spec. Maybe not always?

Thinking back, I seem to recall an ad wherein Doc Severinsen asserted that he would not play an instrument that was not aligned by Bob Reeves. If so, I guess there goes some of my argument...

While some valve-alignment specialists assert that misaligned valves are somehow akin to the difference between a ML-bore horn and a L-bore horn, the protruding edge of a misaligned valve port affects only a tiny fraction of the overall length of a trumpet's bore.

To me, it is like having a tiny, sharp dent in front of and in back of the valve port, hardly enough to make a large bore horn play more like a medium bore as is sometimes asserted.

But, I do like the idea of long-lasting pad material that doesn't change thickness over time.

Divitt Trumpets · Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 4:43 pm Post subject:

There are definitely quality control stages in the factories, but when we discuss precision in instruments down to the .001", it becomes clear that there are many things that a factory can't possibly chase on every instrument.
The difference between ML and L for some brands is as little as .002", so if the alignment of a valve is routinely out as far as .030" from the factory, it could be considered serious by those who measure. That being said, bore size is a very small part of the entire trumpet picture. It's the reflecting edges in the air column that are the issue for me. That can cause resistance or uneven feelings between fingerings.

My problem with long lasting pad materials, such as rubber is that they are very noisy. I would much rather have quiet valves and replace them every 5 years.
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Winghorn · Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:38 pm Post subject:

[quote="Divitt Trumpets"] [....
The difference between ML and L for some brands is as little as .002", so if the alignment of a valve is routinely out as far as .030" from the factory, it could be considered serious by those who measure...]

I could buy that if the misalignment caused a reduction in the bore size throughout the entire instrument, rather than in just one tiny area before and after the valve port (the inside of the port is obviously of full diameter).

I still think that it is very misleading to make such a comparison.

Maybe we can agree to disagree...