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Fountain of youth?



 
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markp
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:53 am    Post subject: Fountain of youth? Reply with quote

How many times can you overhaul, refit, re-plate, re-finish, straighten, blueprint and restore a special old horn that hasn't necessarily been mistreated, until it loses all the character that made it special?

Do Dr. Melk or Dr. Stewart ever shake their heads sadly and say, "Just keep him comfortable and enjoy him as long as you can?"
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:25 am    Post subject: Re: Fountain of youth? Reply with quote

markp wrote:
How many times can you overhaul, refit, re-plate, re-finish, straighten, blueprint and restore a special old horn that hasn't necessarily been mistreated, until it loses all the character that made it special?

Do Dr. Melk or Dr. Stewart ever shake their heads sadly and say, "Just keep him comfortable and enjoy him as long as you can?"


Robb spoke to that question in this essay:
https://www.robbstewart.com/preserving-history

But if an instrument is rare enough, then historically it may be worth replicating what has been lost, as he discussed in this one:
https://www.robbstewart.com/brass-archeology-1

Some of the more basic processes you list can be repeated and repeated, others impact the characteristics of the instrument.

Blueprinting in itself is just a mix of metrology and adjusting/correcting workmanship. That has no cumulative impact.

Valve rebuilds take brass away from the casing walls and add mass to the pistons, but can be done several times with negligible impact, until you run out of ledge for the guide to catch on. Then the valve can be sleeved and the piston turned back down. Valve rebuilds can be done many many many times.

Straightening is a mixed bag. If you work metal back and forth enough times, it will fracture - but crook dents can be undone many times before that is a risk (unless we are talking about a 125+ year old horn with 2-piece crooks, then splitting the seam is possible on the first try). Bell damage is a mixed bag. Every time you work the brass, it hardens a bit. At what point that impacts tone and/or response is highly variable. Straightening leadpipes is far more touchy, and often there is not fix for a leadpipe that will restore the same resistance and intonation profile it had before.

Refinishing is something that unavoidably alters the horn, because brass will be buffed away and every change in mass as well as wall thickness impacts the functional operation of the horn as a system. Top notch work that barely touches the brass can be done a couple times before the horn is drastically different, but its never exactly the same as it was. This is the one way in which horns age that there simply is no way to compensate for.
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2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:39 am    Post subject: Re: Fountain of youth? Reply with quote

markp wrote:
How many times can you overhaul, refit, re-plate, re-finish, straighten, blueprint and restore a special old horn that hasn't necessarily been mistreated, until it loses all the character that made it special?

Do Dr. Melk or Dr. Stewart ever shake their heads sadly and say, "Just keep him comfortable and enjoy him as long as you can?"


If an instrument has been taken care of and is just worn, it can be overhauled several times. If it's old and very worn and/or beat up, you might get one "preserve-and protect" type of overhaul and then it's up to the player to take care of it.

An example of the latter is my Benge I currently play. There are no more overhauls left for this horn. The metal is fragile and it's been repaired multiple times after being smashed. I didn't try to make it look like a "new" horn; it isn't.
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markp
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the replies! So, straightening and refinishing are the things that may have the greatest effect on the way your horn plays? And if you like the way it plays, that means that these things could have the most damaging effect.

Could these procedures actually make the horn sound and feel better? (I should have mentioned earlier that I'm not in the least concerned with cosmetics.)

If your horn has a big, ugly dent on the bell that doesn't seem to hurt the way it plays, maybe you should leave it alone?

I've had several horns that were bumped at some point and the bell bent at the braces toward the leadpipe making it look crooked. Could straightening this out be risky?

I've heard a lot about tension in the bell and braces that should be released by straightening for the horn to resonate optimally. What about that?
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

markp wrote:
Thanks for the replies! So, straightening and refinishing are the things that may have the greatest effect on the way your horn plays? And if you like the way it plays, that means that these things could have the most damaging effect.

Could these procedures actually make the horn sound and feel better? (I should have mentioned earlier that I'm not in the least concerned with cosmetics.)


Yes. Freeing a horn from heavy nitrocellulose lacquer used in the old days has improved the response, and brightened the tone, of horns in ways that pleased the owners. It depends on the situation.

markp wrote:
If your horn has a big, ugly dent on the bell that doesn't seem to hurt the way it plays, maybe you should leave it alone?


If you are happy with how a horn plays, best not to mess. Dents in the stem behind the brace are very different from in front of. In front of, both the dent, and the effects of straightening it out, can influence how the horn sounds, and how it projects.

markp wrote:
I've had several horns that were bumped at some point and the bell bent at the braces toward the leadpipe making it look crooked. Could straightening this out be risky?


Nothing is 100%, but taking bends out of the bell stem usually has better odds of improving the performance of the horn vs harming it. In those cases, you are returning the stem to being round and making the approach of pressure waves to the reflection more even - as it should be.

markp wrote:
I've heard a lot about tension in the bell and braces that should be released by straightening for the horn to resonate optimally. What about that?


Tension is typically not good for how the horn behaves, and how it sounds. Releasing tension through resoldering of the relevant item, or through cryo, lets a horn resonate more freely, improving efficiency, and rebalancing the spectrum with greater emphasis in the overtones.
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
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AndyDavids
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Joined: 08 Jun 2020
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reminds me of the "how many licks does it take" commercial...(3 btw)

Seriously though, interesting question! I was reading a different thread in which someone was thinking of experimenting with leadpipes and bells.
An answer to which I had not thought of referred to the continuous soldering/unsoldering and the buffing which needed to also be done perhaps
taking material away which would then change things slightly. And I will remember the quote "everything affects everything- sometimes not for the better."
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markp
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks again for more great answers Ron!
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yourbrass
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Joined: 12 Jun 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

markp wrote:
Thanks for the replies! So, straightening and refinishing are the things that may have the greatest effect on the way your horn plays? And if you like the way it plays, that means that these things could have the most damaging effect.

Could these procedures actually make the horn sound and feel better? (I should have mentioned earlier that I'm not in the least concerned with cosmetics.)

If your horn has a big, ugly dent on the bell that doesn't seem to hurt the way it plays, maybe you should leave it alone?

I've had several horns that were bumped at some point and the bell bent at the braces toward the leadpipe making it look crooked. Could straightening this out be risky?

I've heard a lot about tension in the bell and braces that should be released by straightening for the horn to resonate optimally. What about that?


All the things you mention can be repaired. And yes, an instrument that solidly put together and in proper adjustment is going to play well.
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"Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/
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Bflatman
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Joined: 01 Nov 2016
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you dont damage the tubing in some way they dont deteriorate if you dont wear your valves out they dont need rebuilding.

I use my horns extensively and I give em a rough ride and I am seeing no wear at all.

I use lots of valve oil and in return I get zero valve wear.

I have 70 year old instruments that I never carry in a case and they are used for 4 hours each day and I treat them roughly and abuse them and they never wear out or dent much at all, the only one that has died was run over by a car when I was mown down in the street a few weeks ago.

I will get that pretzel straightened in the hopes it will live again.

I cannot honestly imagine any of them needing any work at all over the next 30 years or more.

For me the question of how many times I can have a horn refurbished or rebuilt before it dies is simply a non issue. I wont live long enough to find out.
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