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Should we use our cellphones to record our playing


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Bflatman
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:33 am    Post subject: Should we use our cellphones to record our playing Reply with quote

There have been some posts that have explored using recordings of our playing to help us improve our play. I am all for that.

A common device used however is a cellphone for this but the question is how useful is a cellphone for making faithful recordings.

This link is to an article that explores that very question.

https://mynewmicrophone.com/what-kind-of-microphones-are-used-in-cell-phones/

Cellphones use electret and MEMS microphones and this is a quote from the article that gives an indication of its content relating to that and the question posed here in this thread.

"Electret condenser capsules and MEMS microphones are incredibly inexpensive and relatively easy to create. This means that cellphone manufacturers are able to make more profit from their cellphones while also having a constant supply of microphones to keep up with their production demands.

The sound quality of these cheap microphones is not a huge factor in the overall cellphone quality. The truth is that phones and cellphone have never had great audio, and that’s perfectly acceptable. So long as communication is possible, the cellphone microphone is a success.

In other words, these inexpensive electret and MEMS mics are not all that great at capturing accurate audio, but it doesn’t really matter so long as they capture the important frequencies of human speech. Cellphones do not require top-of the line mics or anything remotely resembling those."

The frequencies generated by a brass instrument are complex and consist of over 20 harmonics of different amplitudes in one single pitch played.

I have seen experiments that demonstrate that only 10% of the audible speech dynamic range needs to be captured and reproduced by a cellphone for the conversation to be clearly understood.

If we put this together what we get is, brass instruments require faithful reproduction of a wide and full dynamic range and cellphones require cheap microphones that are incapable of reproducing a wide and full dynamic range that is produced by brass instruments.

This is why when a brass player substitutes a cheap but well made recording quality microphone for their cellphone microphone they experience a surprising unexpected and significant increase in the quality of the recorded audio.

This may not always necessarily be the case, there might be a good cellphone microphone out there, Personally I doubt it and I would not buy a cellphone based upon its microphone performance.

Should we use cellphones to record our playing.

In my opinion no, not in a million years. I do not believe they are fit for that purpose.

If I am going to sound like a dog on a recording I want it to be a faithful dog.

I value your opinions. What are your opinions on this.

Have you found a good cellphone with good mic, what is a good substitute that is fit for purpose.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2021 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The first problem that is encountered in cellphone audio recording is clipping of the audio signal, both physical and digital. SPL of a trumpet, played reasonably close to the microphone, is much stronger than that of a regular voice - this can lead to overpowering of the microphone and distortion of the recorded signal. Also, the cellphone audio digitizer is tuned to the audio intensities characteristic of human voice - an overly strong signal will be clipped digitally. Digital clipping in cell phones occurs typically at levels lower than these needed for physical clipping. Check the waveforms recorded with a cellphone microphone - whenever dB = 0, you are clipping the signal digitally. Exactly at this moment the recorded sound will be distorted.

Quite often, the cellphone circuit has AGC - this causes other distortions as the gain level is fluctuating. Typically, the gain is too high before the sound is played and then it is adjusted lower. You can detect the presence of AGC by monitoring the noise level - if that starts increasing after the trumpet sound ceases, it is AGC pumping up the recording level in response to much reduced sound intensity.
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Bflatman
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2021 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That was unexpected and truly excellent.

Thank you etc-etc for your contribution you just educated me.

What a rich well of talent we have in here.
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dstpt
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2021 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not worth it.

Last edited by dstpt on Thu May 06, 2021 3:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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dschwab
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2021 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kind of depends what you intend to do with the cellphone recording. Would I record an album on it? No. It's perfectly fine to check on intonation and time though.

I use the Dolby On app (free) often to check in on my playing. Its surprising what you miss when you're busy playing that is painfully apparent when you listen back.
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TrumpetMD
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2021 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dschwab wrote:
Kind of depends what you intend to do with the cellphone recording. Would I record an album on it? No. It's perfectly fine to check on intonation and time though.

Absolutely! I've used my phone as a practice tool to record my playing. It works fine.

But FWIW, I use a Zoom H1n more often, both as a practice tool and to record my gigs. I'll also use it to practice Arban and Rubank duets, where I record one part, then play the other part while listening to the first track over headphones.

With both devices (phone and Zoom H1n), mic placement is important. For home recording, it works best if I have the device off to the side, so my bell isn't pointing right at it.

Mike
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2021 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is also a middle ground here. You can use a decent mic to record to your cell phone, so you can use the device but not its mic.

The cell phone (using its built in lousy mic) can be used to record something quick and dirty to check yourself, but you have to be aware that some parts of the "output" of a trumpet will be emphasized and some lost.
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SSmith1226
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2021 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that there is another factor in the cellphone sound equation to be considered, the speakers. Below is a link to a video that I put together of a New Horizon’s Band Performance. This is a group of people with very few exceptions of individuals over 55 years old who are either learning to play an instrument from scratch of comeback players, mostly with low level skill sets, minimum practice time, with me among them. Each of them submitted a cell phone video, many of the “selfie” level of video resolution. The audio was recorded simultaneously with the phone microphone. I took each audio track and edited it on GarageBand, adding a little Reverberation and Ambience.
Listening to it on a cellphone speaker, it sounds ok but not great. Adding decent headphones, earbuds, or speaker system, the sound quality and frequency response is markedly improved.
In conclusion, I find the microphone not to be as good as my Zoom Hn4 Pro, but not bad if you listen through the proper speaker arrangement. Give it a try.

https://youtu.be/6hrTMIUh33Y
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It depends what phone you're using. The audio recording on my first cheap smart phone was terrible, the audio on my Motorola G7 Power is pretty decent.

This is audio from video I took with it - the first few clips are with the phone situated behind the bell, the last segment "When You Wish Upon A Star" is in front of the horn maybe 8 feet or so from the bell. Not a treated room, didn't change the EQ at all. If I *was* going to use such a recording for actual presentation I definitely would tweak the EQ some, but it does pretty well on an instrument that's difficult to record. I'd say it handles the spl pretty well.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1VCZFCqRLhafNc3TtVe5UP0x50HhHUt15/view?usp=sharing
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dstpt wrote:
We all know that technology keeps marching forward, or on, or something.
...
I have found the developers of cell phone technology to be shortsighted in other ways, like the option of displaying seconds on the basic iPhone clock! What?! They’ve never had to time the start of a 2 min. 37 sec. church prelude before the start of a live streamed service!????!!! Yeah, right. The same is true for the microphone on the phone. Until enough of us give feedback requesting such, I guess it won’t change, or it will only evolve slowly.


What you mention is very true, although I do not think shortsightedness is the correct word to describe it. Also, I agree with you that advances in technology may not always result in better quality items.

Back when I was a freshman in Aerospace engineering, the A380 airplane was just out and a lot of lectures discussed various aspects of it. I specifically remember a lecture about aircraft engines where they compared it to a twin-engine aircraft that had more powerful engines. Naïve as I was, I asked why the builders didn't put those 4 engines on the A380 instead of the smaller ones, as they were more powerful. The answer I got was 'because the aircraft doesn't need extra power'.

One of the key elements in Aerospace design is to keep everything as lean and light as possible, and from that perspective, the less powerful engines were the optimal choice. The goal is spending as little fuel as possible, not making a plane go as fast as possible. In case of the cell phone, the focus lies on human speech, weight and construction costs. If the first is adequate, they're unlikely to spend more effort to improve it, as the only noticeable 'improvement' for 90% of their consumer base will the increased manufacturing costs. Advances in cellphone microphones will likely be cheaper, smaller and lighter, not better.
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Bflatman
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 3:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent posts and replies on this and great perspectives I am glad many of us share the concerns. I am also glad some have found a solution.

Having worked in manufacturing myself I have seen first hand that costs are ruthlessly shaved wherever possible where unit production numbers are very high, as in phones where literally millions are produced,

The drive is always to keep production costs to the bare minimum.

If it costs 100 dollars to make in malaysia, by the time it is sold in the USA it is priced at 400 dollars due to shipping costs handling costs import export costs warehousing costs logistics handling costs and point of sale markup.

These cost issues serve only to force manufacturers to offer the lowest quality that the customer will accept rather than the highest quality that the customer wants or can be produced.

The opposite driver is in marketing where customers are seen to desire higher performance or higher quality and then improvements can be introduced to meet the customers desire for quality but only if the customer will pay a premium to get that higher quality

If enough phone customers play brass instruments then phone manufacturers are likely to produce phones that can record brass instruments well.

Musicians are less than 1% of the world population.

Manufacturers consider 1% to be a statistical minimum and therefore can be ignored.

I think hoping that phones will improve for our 1 percentile group is little more than trusting to luck and the reality is we need to find our own solution.

Possibly an external microphone solution attached to the phone or simply abandoning phones entirely as a lost cause at least for now.

The thread has been a success for me in educating me on the opinions of members the quality of gear out there and their approaches to dealing with this issue and I thank all contributors.

In particular RobertP who has shown that some phones are good, and cgaiii's opinion that there is a middle ground is excellent.

TrumpetMD and dschwab are correct as well it depends on the purpose we want to use the recording for.

SSmith1226 opinion about the speakers and of course etc-etc about the clipping

Each contributor is nailing the issue in their own way.

I would add that sound recording is heavily affected by the positioning of the mic and the audio characteristics of the environment we record in.

Even a ribbon mic can be made to sound like trash if we are careless and break basic audio recording rules.

This whole recording process is heavily influenced by the environment the positioning the quality of the mic the analogue to digital conversion the clipping the speaker.

I have had nightmares that are more palatable and easily dealt with than this.

More now than ever I respect sound engineers.

Thank you to all
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Jaw04
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are valid excuses for sound quality being bad on a cell phone, but keep in mind an awesome player still sounds pretty awesome in cell phone recordings. At least, from my perspective. They still sound in tune and their sound still sounds rich.
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theslawdawg
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaw04 wrote:
There are valid excuses for sound quality being bad on a cell phone, but keep in mind an awesome player still sounds pretty awesome in cell phone recordings. At least, from my perspective. They still sound in tune and their sound still sounds rich.


Totally agree.

Also, I have heard dstpt play using his cellphone as his studio/microphone. He can play. His tone, and abilities make it obvious, despite the fact he is using his phone, that he is a pro player.
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Bflatman
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ive considered this and there is merit in the argument that some players can sound good on cellphones if they are good enough players but I wonder how much of that is the way they set up the device the room acoustics and the care they display in using the equipment rather than the quality of play.

I have done some research on other instruments and discovered that the same discussion is going on in the sax world.

I think it reasonable to compare sax and trumpet for this discussion.

This is an extract from SAX on the WEB

"Now, in my experience, every time somebody records a saxophone with an iPhone,even if we are talking somebody of the size of Joshua Redman or David Sanborn (you can check the recordings in youtube) the sound can get really poor. Not theirs, but the sound that the recording provides. Also, the rest of the band sound somewhat reasonable.... but saxophones tend, IMO, to sound really bad... but I mean, really really bad"

Joshua Redman will join San Francisco Conservatory of Music as Artistic Director of Roots, Jazz, and American Music. I assume therefore he is a player of some stature and ability.

In his three-and-a-half decade career, David Sanborn has released 24 albums, won six Grammy Awards, and has had eight Gold albums and one Platinum album. I think therefore he is a player.

What is being reported is these significantly talented players sound really really bad on iphone recordings.

I believe that cellphones are simply not recording top sax professionals well as a general rule and this is likely to be the exact same for trumpet players as well, despite some top players having some successes using them.

I dont think we can assume the quality of some recordings being made are a direct result of the quality of the playing and nothing else.

I think something else is going on.

Perhaps we need to understand the reasons behind the good recordings and I dont think we understand enough yet.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a follow-up, here is what BetterSax has to say on the topic:

https://bettersax.com/record-your-sax-usb-microphone-comparison/
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another dynamite post etc-etc that clears a lot of things up

Thanks
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Jaw04
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bflatman wrote:


I believe that cellphones are simply not recording top sax professionals well as a general rule and this is likely to be the exact same for trumpet players as well, despite some top players having some successes using them.

I dont think we can assume the quality of some recordings being made are a direct result of the quality of the playing and nothing else.

I think something else is going on.

Perhaps we need to understand the reasons behind the good recordings and I dont think we understand enough yet.
? Umm, what are you expecting from cell phones? Studio quality recordings? There's nothing clandestine going on. They're small microphones. They capture the sound but are not as good as expensive recording equipment.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaw04 wrote:
There are valid excuses for sound quality being bad on a cell phone, but keep in mind an awesome player still sounds pretty awesome in cell phone recordings. At least, from my perspective. They still sound in tune and their sound still sounds rich.

Can confirm from personal experience that the opposite is also true: a terrible player sounds terrible on a cell phone recording as well.
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Bflatman
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 4:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaw04

We agree on this.

Cellphones are I believe exactly as you state and the reason for this thread is to discover if that is true.

I have no expectation or belief that cellphone mics are anything other than not good.

The issue I have is many players use them in the belief they are good and they believe cellphones do capture faithfully the tones of the instrument sufficiently to use them as a learning tool and as a training device.

And they defend cellphones saying that good players have no problem sounding good on cellphone recordings.

What that is saying is if you dont sound good on a cellphone recording you are not playing well.

If I record using bad equipment the recording will be bad, If I then try to correct the problems in the recording by fixing my playing I am not fixing the problem.

What is the point of that.

That is like photographing a masterpiece with a bad camera and getting a distorted photograph and then demanding that the masterpiece is changed to get a better picture.

Use a camera that is up to the job, fix the thing that is broke. Dont fix things that are not broke.

How many students are pointlessly practicing to get rid of errors that were introduced or created by a bad recording and if they abandoned cellphones and make a faithful recording they would be happy with their play and could work on the real problems in their play.

Many players record themselves on cellphone and use the playback to decide if they are playing well.

I do not accept that is a good practice.

I want students to hear what they sound like not what the cellphone makes them sound like.

This is a teaching issue and it is for this reason I am being picky on this.

We do not use the reflection in a distorting mirror to decide if we are looking good.

I am glad we agree that cellphones are not a good device the question is can we convince students who think they are great to stop using them.

Students have a tough enough job without having this can of worms holding them back.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the “side” I’m a high school band director, and during Covid we have been doing recording projects. Also “on the side” I’m a recording engineer. I have gotten quite a bit of experience dealing with cell phone recording and figuring out how to get good phone recordings. It is possible to get quite good recordings from an iPhone but it’s not “automatic”

First, the absolute most important thing is to use a recording app designed for recording music. Hands DOWN, the best app is called Spire. Spire sets the recording gain etc with a feature called “sound check” that does more than set the gain. It works great. Using spire in an iPhone the sound is way better than using an SM57 and something like an iRig interface (which is terrible). Other apps for recording are not even close to as good as Spire.

Once you have spire working, the next 50% of getting a good recording is mic placement in relationship to the instrument, and mic placement in the room you are using, and of course the sound of the room you are using. Trial and error is WAY better than any other method when it comes to this. Try everything, and say vocally what you are doing like “mic three feet in front at 45 degree angle middle of room pointing at corner” and do every variation you can think of, and then listen back, but NOT on the phone speaker.

As far as I can tell, android phones are terrible for recording. Just awful. iPhones are good. I have several mic upgrades like the ZOOM I-7 stereo mic that cost $100 bucks, and other than being stereo, it’s NOT better than the stock iPhone 11 mic.

When doing school projects there is always a few kids who have a dad with a studio and pro tools etc, and those do Not generally blow the iPhone out of the water. iPhone with spire holds its own.

Making video on a phone is the worst possible way to record, unless you use an app like movie-pro which lets you set the mic gain. It’s still not as good as spire though.

I know this is the internet so a bunch of people will disagree, but all of this is true.
I can post examples if someone wants them.
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