Changing tuning slide position

[thesplitmeister]

Over the years I’ve heard of players telling me their teachers moved their tuning slide and saying “you play with it here now”. I’ve also just seen an interview with the great UK player and teacher Mike Lovatt where he discusses the notion that most trumpets are designed for the tuning slide to be in a set position and having it too far in means you work against the instrument. In my own experience I’ve only ever seen the tuning slide as a way to get the instrument “close” for tuning and used ears and manipulation for the rest, I’ve never thought about pulling out to effect the resonance or sound of the trumpet. Logically, in my mind, that would just lead to me being flat but am I missing something (very likely!), would my body quickly adapt and then leave me with a more balanced trumpet?
I’m not trying to fix something that’s broken in my playing just seeking to educate myself and hear peoples opinions on the matter.
Many thanks all
Jim

[zaferis]

Yes, "modern" trumpets/cornets are designed to be close to A440 with the main tuning slide extended some. To give you the ability to raise or lower the overall tuning in various situations. i.e. some church organs pitch center is lower than A440 some are higher, we need the abiity to, as you say, get close.

We want to set the slide at a point that we are resonating a stable notes pitch at the desired frequency (I like tuning to A- B natural on a Bb instrument-I find that to be a pretty stable note (slots well) that doesn't bend much in either direction,

And yes, we have to adjust most every note by ear, (practiced with a tuner or other consistent tool) but we want to minimize that by having the main slide in an optimal position, whick also means that we're playing more notes in or near the center of their most resonant slot on the instrument.
So, yes the instrument will have more resonance, played intune, with the slide extended, while you have to adjust less, ultimately the sound resonating more, and you working more efficiently.
ONe last thought is support, is that a better more centered tone is also more easily played intune - it's all a big circle.
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[improver]

The tuning slide position is very important. It got only affects intonation but it vfc affects the freedom with which the instrument blows. I believe there is an exact maximal position on each horn. Old Bach 37s to me are very sensitive to mainnslide position.

[abontrumpet]

[JayKosta]

My experience has mostly been with playing indoors and comfortable temperatures, and with the initial 'group tuning' being done with an electronic tuner @ A 440.
If initial tuning is done based on a different 'pitch reference', that would change things.
OH - and I dislike when the person giving the tuning note is making adjustments the whole while, or is playing too softly to be heard! Why bother?
In that situation I put the slide where it's been for the last 20 years, and listen to make later adjustments.

In a standard situation my tuning slide is always very near its 'standard position'. If it seems that I need a significant change (at initial tuning), it is usually because I am not adequately warmed-up, or other physical influence that is likely to be resolved with a little more playing.
Playing in a significantly different temperature environment does have an effect.
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[improver]

" there is no maximal slide position" I disagree. First of all there has to be, because it plays most in tune in oone position, hence A TUNING SLIDE. Secondly, I can tell you the placement of the tuning slide affects resistance. It just does the tubing is longer or shorter. Now it may not be something that you think about, butbthat doesnt mean it ain't happening. Like my dad used to say, one man's junk is another man's treasure.

[Vin DiBona]

There are other variables at work here.
Lip intrusion, oral cavity, tension in the body, depth of cup, throat size, backbore, humidity, air temperature, sinus issues, and a myriad of other issues that can alter the pitch of an instrument.
On any given day, you can be sharp, flat, or spot on.
Monette states to push the slide in a bit and learn to bring the pitch down and use your ears!
That works for some and it does for me - to an extent.
The only brass instrument that can play in perfect tune is the trombone. The slide makes that possible.
Trumpets can not be built in perfect tune and compromises must be made, including moving the tuning slide a bit.
R. Tomasek

[cheiden]

A player with a good ear will always play in tune regardless of the tuning slide position. But if the tuning slide is not in an optimal position then the player will be continuously making adjustments to compensate. And sometimes these compensations can be heard.

I saw a video of a master class where symphony pros were listening to a pair of students playing an excerpt. Every time they played it it was really really good but the pros sensed something was not quite right, even though I heard nothing wrong. After trying a bunch of things finally one student was asked to change the tuning slide position. After that, the excerpt just clicked and was clearly better in a way that the whole class noticed.
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[Jaw04]

For the most part I move my tuning slide out only to use a harmon mute, or with a different mouthpiece (lead piece I pull out a little bit), or to match pitch with a record I am playing along with that is out of tune. Other than that it pretty much stays in the same place and any adjustments happen subconsciously. If you start messing with your tuning slide a lot it will confuse you and will make it harder and harder to find being in tune. I used to struggle with finding pitch, and ended up with wildly different tuning slide positions day to day. That was not a good thing. Better to have a consistent starting point and only deviate from it slightly when needed. If I am playing sharp, instead of going to the tuning slide I try to relax and open up.

[JoseLindE4]

I could imagine myself telling a student something like “you play here now” if they have a tendency to play above or below the resonant center. So if a player consistently plays above the center and that tight sound has become their comfortable place, I could see telling the player to push in some and keep it in until their ears adjust to playing in the resonant part of the note.

Most times, it’s probably easier to teach playing in that sweet spot through modeling, lip bends, guided listening, etc., but for a player with stubborn ears, this might be an effective way to short circuit them out of their comfort zone.

I would assume that every horn has a spot or spots that they play best, but the real fix and adjustment is in the mind and ears.

[mafields627]

[Al Innella]

The position of the main tuning slide is dependent on the tonal center of the ensemble, how in tune the piano or organ is, and the temperature and humidity where you're performing.

[lipshurt]

i taught 50 lessons a week for 15 years, and would def tell certain players to change their habitual slide position. I would only tell them to push in though. I have never seen a student who played on the bottom side of the center. Plenty play above the center, or "high on the pitch" or have a habit of lipping up. The tip off as to that happening was if they had a tendency to split of chip the 4th line D from above. They may have great intonation, and if they chip that note from above it is because the slide was too far out, and that Flat D required more lipping up than the rest to be in tune....band...chip or split. Usuall only 1/16 inch is enough to fix it. You wont feel like you are lipping down, it will just feel better.

Actually sometimes it helps to have someone who is just starting to learn C trumpet to pull out a bit, cuz for some reason players at first tend to sit down too much on C trumpet. (not in "the Taper zone")

If the temperature starts dropping you may need to push in too. For every 3 degrees below 70 degrees, you need to push in "the thickness of a nickle, or about 1/16th inch. So 60 degrees would mean three nickles in. I keep a digital thermometer with me in my case. Its not uncommon at big events for the AC on stage to get the temp down to 65 degrees of less. You come back three hours after the sound check and start a set and bang you you can chip notes that never chip. I clip that little digital thermometer to my ipad or have it on the floor facing up.
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[JoseLindE4]

On a related note, Keith Johnson would teach young players to tune to the piano backwards from the way most players tune. Rather than take a pitch from the piano (piano, trumpet, adjust, etc.), he had the trumpet player play their most beautiful, resonant tuning note, then have the piano play. They’d repeat this process until in tune (trumpet, piano, adjust, repeat). It’s a great way to reinforce playing in resonant part of the horn rather than simply playing in tune.

[Andy Del]

A tuning slide has one purpose in life and that is to adjust the overall pitch of an instrument so it matches others in an ensemble setting. Period. Go too far and the instrument won’t work as well, but that is as far as it goes.

Pedagogically, if a student is pushing their pitch too far one way or the other, it may help to lock their slide into a position to help get them back on the straight and narrow. Assuming they can hear their intonation...

To carry on and on about it and postulate this and that is just futile. A bit more honest practice might be in order!

Cheers

Andy
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[Billy B]

[Billy B]

[Bflatman]

I see two conditions

One is when playing in an ensemble and here we tune to the ensemble pitch and then we are relatively in tune.

The second is when playing solo. here we need to be on pitch and a tuner helps.

I believe that a good player will play on pitch regardless of tuning slide position (within reason) but as already said one position will make it easy with less lipping and we dont fight the instrument in this position.

What I find is as the temperature of the day varies, the best in tune position shifts from slightly extended to extended a long way.

The physics says that the instrument will contract or expand as temperature changes and the speed of sound in air changes with temperature and both these affect the tuning so we should compensate for this by retuning.
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[Andy Cooper]

[Billy B]