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Top/backbore throat mismatch



 
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deleted_user_687c31b
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2021 9:34 pm    Post subject: Top/backbore throat mismatch Reply with quote

Currently I'm playing AR Resonance's modular mouthpieces (top/back that screw together) with 2 throat sizes: 4.00mm (#21) and 4.20mm (#19). Since they do fit together (and I was in an experimental mood) I tried combining the 4.2 top with the 4.0 back and vice versa. The way I understand it, you should use matching pieces and indeed, 4.2 top to 4.0 back was truly awful. However, using a 4.0 top with a 4.2 back played rather well, at least to the point that I didn't find anything immediately wrong with it like huge articulation or intonation problems or such. But that could also be my lack of skill and experience.

So my question is: this shouldn't work right? What exactly should I expect when using mismatching top/throats? Does anyone have any experience with this?
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Divitt Trumpets
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I play a Wedge top with a 25 throat, paired to an AR L 40 backbore. There is a large step between the two parts, but it is by far the best mouthpiece setup I've ever played. If it works, who cares if it looks like it shouldn't work on paper.
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Shark01
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have on occasion used a Wedge 25 top with a Warburton 27 Qm BB and actually liked the results on a piccolo trumpet.
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lipshurt
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is weird how the mismatch works....

For some people, like one in 200 people, ANY mismatch at all destroys the sound and it sounds horribly airy. Crazy airy, just terrible.

Most people though it makes no difference at all, even going from a 25 top to a 27 backbore with a ledge in the airstream like like that. Most can even go 24/27

Even less important is when the top is smaller tha the backbore throat. A 27 top going into a 24 backbore for most people has no real negatives, but it does feel like a bigger throat. Sometimes a 27 into a 24 feels like a 25 but can work better. Once again for 198 out of 200 players.

A 28 into a 27 actually works great, it’s just another option.

It’s better for the backbore to be one size bigger than the top, than for the two parts to be a bit non-concentric. Some makers make the backbore a bit big so that any non-concentricity issue is fixed. It keeps it from having that little edge there which can mess with a few players.
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Andy Cooper
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lipshurt wrote:
This is weird how the mismatch works....

Some makers make the backbore a bit big so that any non-concentricity issue is fixed. It keeps it from having that little edge there which can mess with a few players.


Bill M. of Tottle put a shallow chamfer on the top of a backbore for me to help the #28 Tottle backbores to match up better with a #26 throat Schilke top. It worked OK.
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deleted_user_687c31b
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, so it's not as outlandishly crazy as I thought...thanks for the explanation guys.
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Yamahaguy
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 6:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lipshurt wrote:
A 28 into a 27 actually works great, it’s just another option.

It’s better for the backbore to be one size bigger than the top, than for the two parts to be a bit non-concentric. Some makers make the backbore a bit big so that any non-concentricity issue is fixed. It keeps it from having that little edge there which can mess with a few players.
Very true, and makes perfect sense! I recently have been experimenting with this exact school of thought
and have found very interesting results! I sent Doug a Jet-tone piece which he converted to a modular backbore.
Not only did the 28 top perform extremely well with the 27bb, but I also found the 26 top did also.

There is also the actual shape of the bb to consider as well as overall length and matching to specific horns.
Sound and efficiency have definitely been affected (for the better) and I think the experiment was a huge success!
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AndyDavids
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:42 am    Post subject: Re: Top/backbore throat mismatch Reply with quote

hibidogrulez wrote:
So my question is: this shouldn't work right? What exactly should I expect when using mismatching top/throats? Does anyone have any experience with this?
I think you should expect a headache!
Seriously tho, I've tried many Warburton combinations which I thought matched perfectly...and went with the top/bb which felt and sounded best!
And that is with their standard drill, 27 I guess? I can't even imagine trying
different tops and/or bb's with unmatching throats...my OCD won't allow it, hahaha
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ebolton
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would think using a smaller top on a larger backbore is more likely to be OK than the other way around, which seems to be what the OP found.

This isn't trumpet player talking, this is an engineer with a fluid mechanics background. You're going to get more reflections blowing at a step, and that can't help the sound.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2021 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ebolton wrote:
... You're going to get more reflections blowing at a step, and that can't help the sound.

-------------------
Yes, reflections are going to 'change' the sound - but that doesn't necessarily mean it will not 'sound better'.
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deleted_user_687c31b
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PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2021 6:06 am    Post subject: Re: Top/backbore throat mismatch Reply with quote

AndyDavids wrote:
I think you should expect a headache!
Seriously tho, I've tried many Warburton combinations which I thought matched perfectly...and went with the top/bb which felt and sounded best!
And that is with their standard drill, 27 I guess? I can't even imagine trying
different tops and/or bb's with unmatching throats...my OCD won't allow it, hahaha


Hehe, well the OCD is real...it does 'feel' strange to play mismatching top/back even if the result is totally acceptable. I've mostly tried out of curiosity because I had the pieces laying around anyway. I'm not sure I'd dare use it for a gig...
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kevin_soda
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PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2021 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I owned a Wedge Chuck Findley that worked well with my AR backbores. I think it would have performed better with matching components but the reason I didn't keep the top was the diameter was a touch narrow for my lips.
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