• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

Which Sound Is More Important


Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
HERMOKIWI
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2008
Posts: 2472

PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:45 am    Post subject: Which Sound Is More Important Reply with quote

I've been reading many reviews on horns. There are a lot of differing opinions about what any particular horn sounds like. It got me to thinking about the difference between the sound we hear on the playing end of a horn and the sound the audience hears on the audience's end of a horn and which sound is the more important sound to a particular player.

We know that our impressions of the sound on the playing end of a horn can be much different than the sound the audience perceives in terms of quality, timbre, core, projection and all the other elements of sound.

So, what is more important to us as players? Is it the sound we perceive at the playing end of the horn or is it the sound the audience perceives. Which of those two sounds has the most influence on what horn we buy and what horn we play?

Speaking only for myself as a jazz improvisation player, the more important sound to me is what I hear on the playing end of the horn. That's because my improvisation is highly influenced by what I hear.

For example, the sound I hear is much different in different types of rooms. Some rooms are "live" and others are "dead" and others are in between. The difference in the sound I hear can be very significant depending on the acoustics of the room in which I'm playing. I find that I am much more comfortable and much more easily creative in rooms that are more lively. So, what I hear makes a big difference to me. Meanwhile, I don't think much about the sound perceived by the audience since sound I don't hear doesn't influence my playing.

What about you? Realizing that both sounds are important overall, if you're play testing/buying a horn which sound is the more important sound to you?
_________________
HERMOKIWI
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jaw04
Veteran Member


Joined: 31 Dec 2015
Posts: 475
Location: Oakland, CA

PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have always gravitated to horns that you can really hear the sound coming at you from behind the bell. When I have tried horns that put the sound out in front more, Monettes and Harrelsons, I was not used to that. It made me want to play my own trumpet more because I felt like I could hear myself better. I think I could get used to it if I wanted to.
_________________
JW - musician and educator
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
djpearlman
Veteran Member


Joined: 30 Aug 2002
Posts: 442
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico

PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"I've practiced my tone for almost 50 years, and if I can't hear my tone, I can't play." - Miles Davis
_________________
Dan Pearlman
Santa Fe, NM

- Monette Cornette
- Getzen 800 DLX cornet
- Carolbrass Pocket Trumpet
- Monette mouthpieces
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Goby
Veteran Member


Joined: 11 Jun 2017
Posts: 315

PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We spend a lot more time hearing ourselves behind the bell than in front of it, but ultimately our "sound" is what the audience (or microphone) picks up, not what we hear/feel behind the mouthpiece. A room where you can hear your sound expand and echo back to you is a prerequisite for an honest trial of any horn, imo.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
shofarguy
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 6619
Location: AZ

PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a great discussion thread, Hermokiwi!

For me, both play their important parts in my decision making paradigm.

I once played a Benge 3x from the 60s in an arena with an amplified worship band and choir. The only way I could hear myself was to listen to the monitor. I could not hear anything coming directly from that trumpet. It was the most difficult gig I've ever played. On the other hand, I've walked a 360 degree circle around another player while they played my Benge 5X and that trumpet sounded the same as what I heard from behind the bell now matter where I was in the room, which was a fairly large sanctuary with great acoustics.

I've circled numerous Wild Thing horns in Flip Oakes' shop while he played. Seemingly identical horns can have very different feedback characteristics! One time, Flip played two WTs for comparison. Each was an extreme example of where the sound centers along the length of the horn. One sounded very bright to the player but was dark and smokey out in front. Its sound seemed to center in the bell at the valve section. The other sounded dark, almost dull to the player, but was emphatically brilliant to the listener! The sound from that trumpet seemed to coalesce about 18" in front of the bell. Most Wild Thing trumpets are similar to my old Benge 5X and one gets a fairly accurate representation of the projected sound from behind the bell.

Still, when Flip changed the lead pipe specification from #25-O to #43, I had a hard time adjusting to the difference in timbre that I heard as I played the new spec. I didn't like the sound of that new pipe. The Kanstul #43 pipe has a reedy element to the feedback sound, especially when coupled to a copper bell and I DID NOT like it, at first. But, Flip and others told me that I sounded best on the copper horn with that pipe. I trust them, so I learned to accept that sound.

To do that, I played in rooms where I could hear the sound, as it rebounded off the walls and ceiling. I even recorded my sound to compare it to other horns, like my Schilke X4, Burbank 6X-CG, Kanstul 1603 and even a 1956 Martin Committee Large Bore. I find that my WT has a rich, complex sound that I like better than all the others. Even my first WT (older spec) didn't have as nice a sound as my current horn.

So, I've learned that feedback from the horn, while not "king," is certainly of primary importance, but feedback from a set of good ears or two is priceless!
_________________
Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JayKosta
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 1800
Location: Endwell NY USA

PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's unlikely that anyone would choose a horn that sounds 'bad' to them when they are playing it - regardless of what it is said to sound like 'out front'.

I think the 'functional issue' is having confidence that the horn's 'out front' sound can be judged and controlled by the player's perception while playing.

I think a very important part of the 'out front' sound is the transmission of the player's 'emotions'. Specific items such as bright, dark, smokey, fuzzy, smooth, clean, clear, etc. all go into the 'emotion' but are only the 'measurable' or 'discuss-able' aspects.
_________________
going back to French horn!
Yamaha 668N, Holton DC mpc
The 'next note' is the most important one.
Don't take a '20 minute mouthpiece' to a 1 hour session.
http://users.hancock.net/jkosta/2021_April_1_snow_web.jpg
April morning Surprise
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bflatman
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 01 Nov 2016
Posts: 720

PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The way we sound on any horn is governed totally by what we hear.

This is obvious simply by reading the comments of players.

Such phrases as "I changed my horn or mouthpiece and after the honeymoon period was over my original sound returned" say it all.

We play, we hear the sound we create, we adjust how we form our embouchure, the sound we produce changes, and then we hear the new sound we create. And so it goes on. And it all happens without thinking or intending it to happen.

How many times have we heard the phase the sound in our head comes out of the horn.

I recently had the great privilege of playing with a small ensemble of young players in a jam, the first thing they did was hand out earplugs.

The next was to turn the amplifiers up to 11 and then they thrashed out some sounds and insisted I play along. I could not hear myself at all. It was impossible to play, never mind play well or even musically.

The most important sound is what we hear on the playing end of the horn because we cannot even function without hearing it.

Ponder this. Beethoven was totally deaf in later life and yet could play well and compose despite being deaf. What would a totally deaf trumpet player sound like. How important is it to hear what we sound like - it is everything.

We must answer these fundamental questions, why do we play music, what is it that we do, and more importantly, is it fit for purpose.

We can play for ourselves and what we hear, but for me this is not the reason that I play, I play to entertain and create music for the listener.

We are the bringers of joy but to do that there has to be joy and we have to bring it.

The most important sound for me is the sound I hear but even more important is the sound the audience hears. It is after all the reason for my existence as a musician.

I cannot play well without hearing how I play and the audience cannot enjoy what I play without my playing well and I dont get to eat if they dont like what they hear.

This question posed in this thread and its answer is fundamental to me and I answered it for myself long ago.

My life and my existence depends totally upon my hearing what I sound like and this hearing what I sound like influences and governs what I sound like to the audience.

There are a lot of opinions about what a horn sounds like, that is true but it is very much a red herring, all horns are malleable and all horns from bright to dark can be played however the player has the skills to make them play.

I play dark and rich by choice and all my horns from bright to dark, sound the same, - rich and dark, unless I am playing mariachi or salsa in which case all my horns sound bright, and I cannot do this malleable sound unless I can hear myself and control how I sound.

A bright mariachi player who is a good mariachi player will sound bright on a dark horn and this is only because he can hear how he sounds.

Chet baker borrowed many horns during his career when he was hornless and he always sounded like chet regardless of what the horn was, and this can only have been because he could hear what he sounded like as he played.

The most important sound is what I hear

AND

The most important sound is what the audience hears

And I pray that what I hear is close enough to what the audience hears for it to make a difference to the sound I produce and it be the right difference that I make.

And if I get it right the sound in my soul that moves me reaches into the soul of the audience and moves them and any loss or inadequacy along the way will derail this communication and the point to my existence will then be lost.

I have come to believe that there is not just relative tuning but there is also relative tone.

In other words the first tone the audience hears determine the later tones they hear relative to that first tone.

What we hear at the rear of the bell then becomes the most important because hearing this allows us to make more coherent sounds and the quality of this coherence determines the quality of the music that the audience hears.

In other words the sounds the audience hears matters far less than the sound we hear because we have the skills to "make it sound right" to the audience but to pull off this trick we must hear what we sound like and be able to make it sound right to us. And when it sounds right to us it sounds right to the audience.
_________________
Conn 80a Cornet
Boosey & Hawkes Emperor Trumpet
Olds Fullerton Special Trumpet
Selmer Invicta Trumpet
Yamaha YCR 2330II Cornet
Selmer Student Trumpet
Bohland and Fuchs peashooter Trumpet
Boosey and Hawkes Regent Cornet
Lark M4045 Cornet
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
HERMOKIWI
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2008
Posts: 2472

PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll comment on Bflatman's post without quoting it.

The horn and mouthpiece we play affects the sound we produce. So, when I switch horns (I play the same mouthpiece on all my trumpets) the sound I produce and the sound I hear and the sound the audience hears are each and all affected by my choice of horn (and would also be affected by my choice of mouthpiece if I was switching those as well).

That means that technically when I play 50 different horns I'm hearing 50 different sounds on my end of the horn and the audience is hearing 50 different sounds on their end of the horn. I'm not producing one consistent sound on all 50 horns because the different horns affect the sound differently. I'm not subconsciously (or otherwise) adjusting my embouchure to try to produce a singular "sound in my head". I'm playing the way I normally play and the sound is whatever the sound is for me from that particular horn.

To try to do otherwise would be an effort to overcome/bypass the natural acoustics of the particular horn and/or mouthpiece being played, an effort that would negate any reason to play one horn or one mouthpiece instead of another. Not to mention the fact that messing with your embouchure as you go from horn to horn or mouthpiece to mouthpiece is an invitation for enormous inconsistency.

The thrust of my original question is "Do we choose our equipment more for the way it sounds to us on our end of the horn or do we choose our equipment more for the way it sounds to the audience?"

I used my own preference as an improvisational jazz player as an example but maybe the preference of a symphonic player would be much different than my preference. In jazz there is a wide range of well accepted sounds but in major symphony orchestras isn't there a somewhat narrow range of the specific sound desired based on how the audience perceives the sound? If that's true then wouldn't a symphonic player be influenced more by the sound perceived by the audience when choosing equipment?

When players review their horns and mouthpieces it seems that the descriptions of the sound are those perceived by the player from the player's end of the horn. The descriptions may be very different from the audience's side of the horn.

So, a horn/mouthpiece that sounds "perfect" to the player may actually sound much less than perfect to the player if the player was listening from the side of the audience. If that's the case would the player want to choose equipment that sounds less than "perfect" to the player from the player's side of the horn but which matches the player's idea of "perfect" from the audience's side of the horn? Do players think in these terms when choosing equipment?

I think most of us choose our equipment on the basis of how it sounds to us on our side of the horn with the belief that things will work out as we intend (or at least at a level acceptable to us) on the audience's side of the horn. Certainly I tend to follow that pattern. However, I don't know, I can only speak for myself. Thus, my question.
_________________
HERMOKIWI
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
abontrumpet
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 08 May 2009
Posts: 1079

PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Choosing a horn (from a symphonic/classical player):

1. Ease of play and ease of getting the desired sound behind the bell
2. Extensive testing with a trusted friend in an acoustical environment similar to your ideal gig.

#1 is essential to get to #2. Then, for most of my colleagues, #2 is a make or break step. If it's not projecting, or sounds significantly worse than others, it's tossed even if it is the most amazing horn behind the bell.


HERMOKIWI wrote:
I'm not subconsciously (or otherwise) adjusting my embouchure to try to produce a singular "sound in my head". I'm playing the way I normally play and the sound is whatever the sound is for me from that particular horn.


I disagree. I think most people that have an ideal sound they want to achieve will subconsciously adjust to achieve that on whatever horn/mouthpiece they are playing. It does cause issues.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mike Prestage
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 09 Oct 2012
Posts: 620
Location: London, UK

PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For me in a perfect world, it would be 100% about what the audience hear. In the real world, I don't see how anyone could avoid the player side having a big influence.

Mike
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
HERMOKIWI
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2008
Posts: 2472

PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

abontrumpet wrote:


HERMOKIWI wrote:
I'm not subconsciously (or otherwise) adjusting my embouchure to try to produce a singular "sound in my head". I'm playing the way I normally play and the sound is whatever the sound is for me from that particular horn.


I disagree. I think most people that have an ideal sound they want to achieve will subconsciously adjust to achieve that on whatever horn/mouthpiece they are playing. It does cause issues.


The "ideal sound" at their end of the horn which they can hear while playing or the "ideal sound" at the audience's end of the horn (which they can't hear while playing)? Which one is really their "ideal sound"?

We hear a lot about players wanting to sound like someone well known. We hear a lot of advice about getting that sound into our heads as an important component of being able to produce that sound. The problem is that we are focusing on copying the sound the other player produces as heard by the audience. We can't know how that sound sounds to the other player on their end of whatever equipment they play and, as we're playing, we can only hear things from our side of the horn, we can't know if we're really producing that "ideal sound" on the audience's side of the horn.

So, players may subconsciously adjust on whatever horn/mouthpiece they are playing to produce their "ideal sound" but what does that really mean in terms of the sound actually produced as perceived by the audience? And since a consistent sound perceived by the player on the player's end of two different horns may be reflected in two significantly different sounds at the audience's end of the horn, does the player really achieve an "ideal sound" goal just by matching up perceived sounds from the player's end of two different horns (assuming that's even possible for those two particular horns)?

I never adjust/alter the way I'm playing to try to get any sound at either end of the horn other than my natural sound as that sound is ultimately affected by the natural acoustics of the horn and mouthpiece. Never. I can't speak for other players so hopefully they will chime in so we can get a well rounded perspective on what players do or try to do or think they do.
_________________
HERMOKIWI
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sdr93trp
Regular Member


Joined: 29 Mar 2021
Posts: 15

PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to riff on what others have said, the most important thing is the sound you hear in your head making it out to the audience. The best way to know that's happening is to record yourself playing exercises, etudes, etc. on a regular basis (at least once a week). It also means that you need a good concept of sound to begin with or you're dead in the water.

IMO, you should always take a decent recording device with you when you try out horns and you can't change my mind on that. Because of the way our bodies are designed, our ears have protective mechanisms to keep our own voices from damaging them. That means we never hear our real speaking voice unless we record it and listen back. In fact, play recordings of people's voices back to them and you're likely going to get some interesting responses lol.

The problem is, this protective mechanism is also active when we play our horns. That means it's impossible to hear how we actually sound unless we have a recording. So in order to develop our sound and pick horns that complement our sound, we need to develop a great concept of sound in our heads and record ourselves regularly because our ears are always lying to us.

BTW, this is not to hijack this thread about proper recording methods etc. There are other threads for that. This is about knowing our sound.
_________________
SDR

This advice may be free. But remember, you get what you pay for.

Yamaha YTR-6335 HSMV
1936 Buescher Aristocrat Tru Tone
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
abontrumpet
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 08 May 2009
Posts: 1079

PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HERMOKIWI wrote:
The "ideal sound" at their end of the horn which they can hear while playing or the "ideal sound" at the audience's end of the horn (which they can't hear while playing)? Which one is really their "ideal sound"?


The "ideal sound" is in your head. Chances are you stay on a horn for a length of time lasting more than a year. By recording yourself, listening back, playing for friends, etc., that all syncs the audience sound with the sound behind the bell to the sound in your head. With enough feedback, at some point you know exactly how you will sound on a recording device based on the sound you experience behind the bell.

When the horn changes, you subconsciously are looking for that same feedback loop. With time you can get used to the new feedback loop if friends give the "thumbs up" and you find it easy to play and the sound behind the bell is "agreeable" enough to warrant testing it for friends.

But of course the perceived sound should match the ideal sound audience end. If you constantly listen back and sound bad, you are done with that horn because the ideal is not coming through. There has to be a match between the ideal sound and the perceived sound for an artist to be ultimately satisfied.

HERMOKIWI wrote:
I never adjust/alter the way I'm playing to try to get any sound at either end of the horn other than my natural sound as that sound is ultimately affected by the natural acoustics of the horn and mouthpiece. Never


If you don't have an ideal vision for your playing, it is hard to achieve your ideal. So, I just don't think it's possible. If you had a terrible trumpet that sounded terrible, you'd try to make it sound good despite the "natural acoustics." Unless you enjoy sounding bad.

I think you can play a trumpet the same way (your swing is the same), but subconsciously (aka unnoticeable to the self), there might be more lip tension, more air, less air, etc., in order to achieve the ideal sound.


Last edited by abontrumpet on Thu Apr 29, 2021 7:26 am; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
hibidogrulez
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Jun 2020
Posts: 799
Location: Europe

PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a typical amateur I'd say the sound I hear myself is more important, for various reasons. For one thing, I'm far to insecure to rely on 'what the audience hears is great regardless' if I hear myself sounding poorly. But I also chose the trumpet because I enjoy listening to it so I'd like to be able to enjoy it while I play. Fortunately for me, the two aren't strictly mutually exclusive. And it helps me get in the zone to actually perform better.
_________________
Enthusiastic amateur with good intentions. My personal experiences may not match yours. Value my posts as you see fit.

Plays an Olds Recording with AR Resonance mouthpiece(s)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
TrumpetMD
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 22 Oct 2008
Posts: 2073
Location: Maryland

PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting thread.

I don't think it's an either-or. Instead, it's the relationship between the two. What's most important is learning to correlate what you hear behind the horn to what the audience is actually hearing in front of the horn.

Mike
_________________
Bach Stradivarius 43* Trumpet (1974), Bach 6C Mouthpiece.
Olds L-12 Flugelhorn (1969), Yamaha 13F4 Mouthpiece.
Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
HERMOKIWI
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2008
Posts: 2472

PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

abontrumpet wrote:
If you don't have an ideal vision for your playing, it is hard to achieve your ideal.


Different players have different concepts of what they consider their "ideal sound."

To some players the "ideal sound" is a sound they hear another player produce. They try to put that sound in their head and then exactly reproduce (imitate) that sound when they play. This is essentially the "I want to sound like Phil Smith" concept.

Other players (including me) define their "ideal sound" as their natural sound. They do not have any other sound concept in their head as their "ideal sound" and they are not trying to reproduce (imitate) any other player's sound. This is essentially the Miles Davis "Man, sometimes it takes you a long time to sound like yourself" concept.

In either example the idea is to ultimately be satisfied with your sound. That goal can be achieved in both examples. It just depends on the player's approach, attitude and philosophy.

We know that the sound we produce is influenced by our own personal physiology. So, what if our "ideal sound" is inconsistent with our personal physiology? What if our personal physiology will forever prevent us from sounding like Phil Smith? Is this like trying to pound a square peg into a round hole? If it is, what do we do then?

Getting back to the original question: Which is the more important sound in choosing a horn and/or mouthpiece: The sound from the player's end of the horn or the sound from the audience's end of the horn?

If a player has a specific sound concept (such as the Phil Smith sound) and the player is trying to produce that sound on every trumpet with every mouthpiece then the sound from the audience's perspective has to be the sound the player considers more important. This would especially be the case since a consistent sound on the audience's side of two different horns might be perceived by the player as inconsistent on the player's side of the two horns.

I think fully understanding your sound does require recording your sound. That being said, how many players recorded their sound and listened to the playback when play testing their trumpet and/or mouthpiece at the time they made their buying decision? How many players, instead, play tested a horn and/or mouthpiece and made their buying decision only on the sound they heard from their end of the horn (and, of course, on the playing characteristics they perceived)?

It's a complicated issue made more so by the fact that for many players the way they sound to themselves has a big impact on how easily and how well they play what they play and, therefore, may be much more important to them than how they sound to he audience. I fit that category but others may not. So, it's interesting to hear the differing perspectives on this topic.
_________________
HERMOKIWI
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
abontrumpet
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 08 May 2009
Posts: 1079

PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HERMOKIWI wrote:
To some players the "ideal sound" is a sound they hear another player produce. They try to put that sound in their head and then exactly reproduce (imitate) that sound when they play. This is essentially the "I want to sound like Phil Smith" concept.

Other players (including me) define their "ideal sound" as their natural sound. They do not have any other sound concept in their head as their "ideal sound" and they are not trying to reproduce (imitate) any other player's sound. This is essentially the Miles Davis "Man, sometimes it takes you a long time to sound like yourself" concept.


Sorry for giving you a hard time, but I can't help it. Your "natural sound" is whatever you produced when you first picked up the trumpet. It's hot garbage. Or is it the sound you produce 10 years in? Or is it your sound on a bad day? Or is it your sound on a great day?

You cannot have gone through life playing trumpet never having heard a trumpet player, therefore you cannot realistically ever produce your "natural sound" (like a vocalist and their biologically given voice). I know what you're getting at (if blew into a trumpet and your lips flap freely devoid of any outside influence, that's the sound), but it's just not possible. Realistically we would all sound like beginning trumpeters. So many poor players never get better because they don't listen to enough great players and simply recreate themselves or the the best kid at their high school.

So again, I think I have already solved your dilemma.

In the constraints you are setting up for "natural sound" world, the answer is, you don't have any concept of what a trumpet is supposed to sound like therefore you can play any trumpet and that is the sound of the trumpet. At that point you just choose the easiest trumpet because sound does not matter.

But you even write: "Other players (including me) define their "ideal sound" as their natural sound." Therefore you have an ideal.

You have to define natural sound for us in order to help you answer your question. "In either example the idea is to ultimately be satisfied with your sound:" I would argue, philosophically, that there is no such concept as satisfaction (for the natural sound player) in the way you currently describe the idea of natural vs ideal sound.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mike Prestage
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 09 Oct 2012
Posts: 620
Location: London, UK

PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TrumpetMD wrote:
Interesting thread.
What's most important is learning to correlate what you hear behind the horn to what the audience is actually hearing in front of the horn.

Mike


+1. That said, I'm sure there are players out there who attach fundamental value to enjoying listening to themselves, independently of performing to an audience. I also (think I) get the OP's point that in some settings, tone might serve more as a tool to communicate musical ideas then a form of expression in itself. If that's where you're coming from, it seems reasonable to choose gear around what sort of feedback makes you feel confident and relaxed as a performer.

Mike
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
HERMOKIWI
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2008
Posts: 2472

PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

abontrumpet wrote:
HERMOKIWI wrote:
To some players the "ideal sound" is a sound they hear another player produce. They try to put that sound in their head and then exactly reproduce (imitate) that sound when they play. This is essentially the "I want to sound like Phil Smith" concept.

Other players (including me) define their "ideal sound" as their natural sound. They do not have any other sound concept in their head as their "ideal sound" and they are not trying to reproduce (imitate) any other player's sound. This is essentially the Miles Davis "Man, sometimes it takes you a long time to sound like yourself" concept.


Sorry for giving you a hard time, but I can't help it. Your "natural sound" is whatever you produced when you first picked up the trumpet. It's hot garbage. Or is it the sound you produce 10 years in? Or is it your sound on a bad day? Or is it your sound on a great day?

You cannot have gone through life playing trumpet never having heard a trumpet player, therefore you cannot realistically ever produce your "natural sound" (like a vocalist and their biologically given voice). I know what you're getting at (if blew into a trumpet and your lips flap freely devoid of any outside influence, that's the sound), but it's just not possible. Realistically we would all sound like beginning trumpeters. So many poor players never get better because they don't listen to enough great players and simply recreate themselves or the the best kid at their high school.

So again, I think I have already solved your dilemma.

In the constraints you are setting up for "natural sound" world, the answer is, you don't have any concept of what a trumpet is supposed to sound like therefore you can play any trumpet and that is the sound of the trumpet. At that point you just choose the easiest trumpet because sound does not matter.

But you even write: "Other players (including me) define their "ideal sound" as their natural sound." Therefore you have an ideal.

You have to define natural sound for us in order to help you answer your question. "In either example the idea is to ultimately be satisfied with your sound:" I would argue, philosophically, that there is no such concept as satisfaction (for the natural sound player) in the way you currently describe the idea of natural vs ideal sound.


I appreciate your comments/opinion (sharing comments and opinions is one of the main purposes of TH) but I stand by what I've already written and posted as being relevant and valid.
_________________
HERMOKIWI
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bethmike
Regular Member


Joined: 21 Jan 2020
Posts: 58
Location: Crystal Lake, il

PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:04 am    Post subject: which sound is important Reply with quote

Quote:
What's most important is learning to correlate what you hear behind the horn to what the audience is actually hearing in front of the horn.


Others have said it: take someone with a good musical ear to a acoustically good room and have them listen to you.
_________________
Focused on being better, at trumpet and at life.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group