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When to go from student to intermediate horn?


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TheAidanAU
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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2021 2:05 pm    Post subject: When to go from student to intermediate horn? Reply with quote

Hello everyone,

I am currently on my 4th year of playing trumpet. I originally started around September 2017, and I have improved a lot since then. I can really only play around high G, and sometimes higher C if I am lucky. I am wondering if my trumpet is holding me back, or if I need to practice more. If it is my trumpet, can anyone please suggest intermediate horns? Thank you.

Aidan
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2021 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheAidanAU wrote:
When to go from student to intermediate horn?


My opinion, formed through information gleaned on here over the last decade, is never. Others may disagree, many are more qualified to answer than me.

But from everything I have read, there really isn't a need for intermediate horns, nor is there much to distinguish them from the lower tier for the poorer ones, or from the upper tier for the better intermediate models.

The horn is probably not holding you back. Your money would be better spent on getting a private teacher to guide you through the process.

BTW, knowing what brand and model you currently play will aid people in providing more informed/specific answers.
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TheAidanAU
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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2021 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LittleRusty wrote:
TheAidanAU wrote:
When to go from student to intermediate horn?


My opinion, formed through information gleaned on here over the last decade, is never. Others may disagree, many are more qualified to answer than me.

But from everything I have read, there really isn't a need for intermediate horns, nor is there much to distinguish them from the lower tier for the poorer ones, or from the upper tier for the better intermediate models.

The horn is probably not holding you back. Your money would be better spent on getting a private teacher to guide you through the process.

BTW, knowing what brand and model you currently play will aid people in providing more informed/specific answers.


I'm sorry, I thought I included the brand. I have an Etude ETR-100 Series. Also, thank you for your opinion, it is very appreciated.
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Goby
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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2021 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skip the intermediate horn and go straight for a base-model pro horn like a Bach Strad, Yamaha Xeno, or even a Carol Brass of your choice. You're at the point in your development where a pro horn will certainly help your progress, although I would agree that a teacher will help you more than new gear. If you're able to, find a teacher, take a few lessons, and ask their advice on what horns would be appropriate for the playing you want to do. Hard to go wrong with a Bach Strad, although the new Carol Brass horns are arguably better in quality, materials, and construction and can be had for very good prices on the used market.
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TheAidanAU
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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2021 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Goby wrote:
Skip the intermediate horn and go straight for a base-model pro horn like a Bach Strad, Yamaha Xeno, or even a Carol Brass of your choice. You're at the point in your development where a pro horn will certainly help your progress, although I would agree that a teacher will help you more than new gear. If you're able to, find a teacher, take a few lessons, and ask their advice on what horns would be appropriate for the playing you want to do. Hard to go wrong with a Bach Strad, although the new Carol Brass horns are arguably better in quality, materials, and construction and can be had for very good prices on the used market.


Alright, thank you for your feedback.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2021 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A few points.

- If the Etude horn is your current one - that's an off brand, online, box store, Chinese built budget horn. I don't know if it's holding you back. Buy real instruments made by real makers.

- New intermediate horns are a good deal - for the stores that sell them. Usually, they are dressed up student horns with fixed 3rd slide rings and silver plate. There are exceptions - I think the Yamaha Allegro is a pretty solid horn, and any of the middle-upper tier Getzen offerings are solid. I don't know if the Shires Q series qualifies (might be more of an entry pro model), but they're very good as well.

The ones I mentioned are fine as new horns, but they're nice deals as used horns. I've seen Getzen Capris for for between $200-450, which is barely above a good used student model. That's be a nice horn for the price, better than your Etude. A used Getzen Eterna or Yamaha Allegro would run you more, but you might find play better.

But, most intermediate horns are for kids/parents that don't want to commit to a pro horn but want to get something - mostly a good market for stores.

- The best deal around are used professional trumpets. A Bach Strad runs about $3000 or so, new. A used one is between $1200-1800, and one can find ones that are well cared for. I'm not advocating for a Strad, specifically, but it the most well known one out there. Used Yamaha Xenos are about the same and equally as good - probably more consistent. There's a lot of good choices out there from $800 and up.
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Bflatman
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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2021 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dont accept that there are student instruments intermediate instruments and professional instruments. These are just made up classifications that are convenient for marketing.

Traditionally there was never such arbitrary classes there were cheap instruments that were adequate for students who could not afford higher quality instruments, there were more expensive instruments at slightly higher quality useable for general gigs and dance bands, and there were high quality instruments suitable for orchestral high end use and just about everything a pro or good amateur could desire.

Companies like Conn might have 6 or 7 instruments made at the same time for different uses and at different price points. It was never intended that you graduate through the entire range of conn trumpets from cheap to expensive one after the other over several decades as you improve.

If you want to waste all your money that is a good way to do it.

The idea is you buy the best you can afford that gets the job done and if you need better you buy something substantially better and if you can afford a top quality instrument you buy that.

If you buy something just a bit better because it is supposedly a step up from what you have already got it usually makes little sense. what you should do is go for something substantially better. It will cost a lot whatever you buy and last decades so jump several levels up.

A cheap functional car is suitable for a driver that needs a first car, but the driver as he improves should not think of buying a string of step up cars graduating from a ford fiesta sedan to an intermediate car and finally arrive at a pro car such as a BMW 7 series after 20 years of stepping up.

I dont graduate from a starter pencil to an intermediate pencil and a better intermediate pencil and then finally after 20 years or so buy a professional pencil. I buy the best pencil for the job.

Get yourself something a lot better because you need something a lot better than what you already have.

Forget intermediate and step up classifications they just confuse the issue and you end up with less of a horn than you deserve or can afford.

There is nothing wrong with so called student horns and nothing wrong with step up horns but a step up is often just not enough of a step up for what you need. Go high end as soon as you can and when you need a change.
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Getzen
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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2021 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn’t get too hung up on the marketing tags like “student” “step up” “intermediate” or “professional”. They don’t really mean anything across brands. By that I mean there isn’t a standard we all use regulated by a third party that decides what instruments qualify at what level.

I have seen so called “pro” trumpets I wouldn’t give to a 5 year old. At the same time, for years many of our European distributors marketed our student 300/400 Series as intermediate level.

The comparison really only works within each company’s line. A way to distinguish between models from the same maker. Although, I would agree that many (not all) “step up” or “intermediate” trumpets aren’t worth the higher price tag. You’ll be paying more for silver plate and maybe fancier looking finger buttons and caps. Nothing that really improves the performance of the trumpet.

Look for significant differences in the specs of the horn. Bell construction/material, slide tube material, valve section construction, leadpipe material, etc... There’s also differences you can’t see like tolerances, lapping/honing, origin of parts, etc... Unfortunately, those are all but impossible to find out from most manufactures out there. Not many people are going to be up front about the corners they cut or that they import 90% of their parts from someone else with their name stamped on it.

With that said, I’d recommend looking for a used Getzen 700S (not an SP, but an S). An upper level trumpet similar to the Eterna 900 sold at an intermediate price point. And you can generally find used ones for a really good deal.
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TheAidanAU
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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2021 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Getzen wrote:
I wouldn’t get too hung up on the marketing tags like “student” “step up” “intermediate” or “professional”. They don’t really mean anything across brands. By that I mean there isn’t a standard we all use regulated by a third party that decides what instruments qualify at what level.

I have seen so called “pro” trumpets I wouldn’t give to a 5 year old. At the same time, for years many of our European distributors marketed our student 300/400 Series as intermediate level.

The comparison really only works within each company’s line. A way to distinguish between models from the same maker. Although, I would agree that many (not all) “step up” or “intermediate” trumpets aren’t worth the higher price tag. You’ll be paying more for silver plate and maybe fancier looking finger buttons and caps. Nothing that really improves the performance of the trumpet.

Look for significant differences in the specs of the horn. Bell construction/material, slide tube material, valve section construction, leadpipe material, etc... There’s also differences you can’t see like tolerances, lapping/honing, origin of parts, etc... Unfortunately, those are all but impossible to find out from most manufactures out there. Not many people are going to be up front about the corners they cut or that they import 90% of their parts from someone else with their name stamped on it.

With that said, I’d recommend looking for a used Getzen 700S (not an SP, but an S). An upper level trumpet similar to the Eterna 900 sold at an intermediate price point. And you can generally find used ones for a really good deal.


Thanks for letting me know. I'll look into those trumpets, and I will try to improve everyday.
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royjohn
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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2021 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Aidan,
Congrats on continuing to work on and improve on trumpet...it ain't easy at first, esp. without lessons. A lot goes into a decision to change trumpets besides whether you'd like to or should. There's the already alluded to question of a new horn vs lessons. At least a few lessons would be a good idea at this point. They might, for starters, help you extend your range. It might not be your horn, but instead your technique that is impeding progress.

That said, as someone else remarked, yours is very much an inexpensive Chinese student instrument. Rather than think in terms of step-up, intermediate or pro, I would think in terms of what I could find to try out that feels a good bit better to play. For starters, you might ask your mates if you can try out their horns. That might give you an idea how much better things would be with an intermediate or a used pro horn.

IDK where you live or what's available nearby, but I would want to find somewhere to try instruments rather than to buy an "intermediate" horn because it is sold labeled that way. I happen to be a vintage horn collector...I collect off brands and unloved trumpets and bargains. I don't think I have bought many that cost more than $300, yet most of them are good players and some are pro horns that play very, very well. I suppose you could do lots of research on vintage horns and find a bargain to buy, but I wouldn't expect that of a young person. It's enough that you play some candidates before you buy anything, so that you will have an idea what your money will buy. For instance, a Yamaha ytr-2320, a student horn, would probably play better than your ETR-100. But an old Holton Revelation or a well preserved Conn 22B (the old model, not the new student model) would probably be a lot better than that, and not much more money.

If I were you I would be sure to try some step up horns and some used pro horns and note the differences between them in price and in performance. Then you can make a plan on what to acquire and how to do that. You might have to do some saving or make some deals with your parents. Good Luck!
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deleted_user_687c31b
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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2021 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trent Austin made a video about this particular topic that you may find insightful.

As for the original question, it's highly unlikely that buying a new horn (or even a new mouthpiece) will instantly help you play say, an octave higher than before. But in my experience, a new trumpet can make a big difference over time.

The Olds Recording that I currently play is actually my second trumpet. My first was a Getzen 700SP bought for me by my parents when I was just a kid. My teacher at the time told us that he'd been playing Getzen well into his conservatory years and it seemed to be a fine horn. Fast forward some 20 years, and I was stuck in a rut (roughly at the skill level the OP described). I worked really hard but I just couldn't play those high notes for long, or even make a decent sound. And then by pure chance, the Olds Recording came along.

It was an unbelievable horn and I fell in love with it from the first note. I still had the same issues as before, but on this horn I didn't mind. I was motivated to play again. I went out and did a lot of research, tried new techniques and went on a mouthpiece safari, and 5 years later, everything has improved significantly. My sound is much more open, range went up almost an octave, and I have more control over my sound than I ever had (pp above the bar and going to ff in the same phrase is now fluent and effortlessly, especially compared to before).

And the funny thing is...during my internet research, I learned about how valve oil and slide grease can help for compression. I cleaned my Getzen and gave it a good overhaul and guess what? It actually played quite a bit better than it ever had before I switched instruments. So from a strictly mechanical standpoint, maybe I didn't need to upgrade. But that Olds Recording changed my playing immensely.

EDIT: delano correctly pointed out to me in a private message that the way I wrote this post suggested that the Getzen 700SP is of the same quality as an Olds Recording. I don't think it is, and I've edited this post to reflect that.


Last edited by deleted_user_687c31b on Thu May 06, 2021 5:47 am; edited 1 time in total
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TheAidanAU
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

royjohn wrote:
Hello Aidan,
Congrats on continuing to work on and improve on trumpet...it ain't easy at first, esp. without lessons. A lot goes into a decision to change trumpets besides whether you'd like to or should. There's the already alluded to question of a new horn vs lessons. At least a few lessons would be a good idea at this point. They might, for starters, help you extend your range. It might not be your horn, but instead your technique that is impeding progress.

That said, as someone else remarked, yours is very much an inexpensive Chinese student instrument. Rather than think in terms of step-up, intermediate or pro, I would think in terms of what I could find to try out that feels a good bit better to play. For starters, you might ask your mates if you can try out their horns. That might give you an idea how much better things would be with an intermediate or a used pro horn.

IDK where you live or what's available nearby, but I would want to find somewhere to try instruments rather than to buy an "intermediate" horn because it is sold labeled that way. I happen to be a vintage horn collector...I collect off brands and unloved trumpets and bargains. I don't think I have bought many that cost more than $300, yet most of them are good players and some are pro horns that play very, very well. I suppose you could do lots of research on vintage horns and find a bargain to buy, but I wouldn't expect that of a young person. It's enough that you play some candidates before you buy anything, so that you will have an idea what your money will buy. For instance, a Yamaha ytr-2320, a student horn, would probably play better than your ETR-100. But an old Holton Revelation or a well preserved Conn 22B (the old model, not the new student model) would probably be a lot better than that, and not much more money.

If I were you I would be sure to try some step up horns and some used pro horns and note the differences between them in price and in performance. Then you can make a plan on what to acquire and how to do that. You might have to do some saving or make some deals with your parents. Good Luck!


Thank you for your feedback. I will keep that in mind.
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TheAidanAU
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 4:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hibidogrulez wrote:
Trent Austin made a video about this particular topic that you may find insightful.

As for the original question, it's highly unlikely that buying a new horn (or even a new mouthpiece) will instantly help you play say, an octave higher than before. But in my experience, a new trumpet can make a big difference over time.

The Olds Recording that I currently play is actually my second trumpet. My first was a Getzen 700SP bought for me by my parents when I was just a kid. My teacher at the time told us that he'd been playing Getzen well into his conservatory years and it seemed to be a fine horn. Fast forward some 20 years, and I was stuck in a rut (roughly at the skill level the OP described). I worked really hard but I just couldn't play those high notes for long, or even make a decent sound. And then by pure chance, the Olds Recording came along.

It was an unbelievable horn and I fell in love with it from the first note. I still had the same issues as before, but on this horn I didn't mind. I was motivated to play again. I went out and did a lot of research, tried new techniques and went on a mouthpiece safari, and 5 years later, everything has improved significantly. My sound is much more open, range went up almost an octave, and I have more control over my sound than I ever had (pp above the bar and going to ff in the same phrase is now fluent and effortlessly, especially compared to before).

And the funny thing is...during my internet research, I learned about how valve oil and slide grease can help for compression. I cleaned my Getzen and gave it a good overhaul and guess what? It's actually almost as good as my Recording. So from a strictly mechanical standpoint, I didn't need to upgrade. But that Olds Recording changed my playing immensely.


Thank you for your feedback.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your current Etude ETR-100 is probably OK - as long as it is functioning properly. If it does start to have problems with valves, slides, solder joints, etc. THEN would be the time it needs to be replaced (or repaired).

The playing problem (upper range) that you mentioned is likely because you are not using 'good technique' for that range - and it is a SKILL that needs to be learned, not simply rim pressure and lip strength.
There are lots of thoughts and suggestions about 'embouchure' in the FUNDAMENTALS section.

Yes, buying a 'better' horn can help if it gives you more confidence and encourages you to practice more!
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TheAidanAU
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
Your current Etude ETR-100 is probably OK - as long as it is functioning properly. If it does start to have problems with valves, slides, solder joints, etc. THEN would be the time it needs to be replaced (or repaired).

The playing problem (upper range) that you mentioned is likely because you are not using 'good technique' for that range - and it is a SKILL that needs to be learned, not simply rim pressure and lip strength.
There are lots of thoughts and suggestions about 'embouchure' in the FUNDAMENTALS section.

Yes, buying a 'better' horn can help if it gives you more confidence and encourages you to practice more!


Thank you for letting me know. My horn is in good working condition, even though it has a few scratches on the lacquer on the front.
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deleted_user_687c31b
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 5:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheAidanAU wrote:
Thank you for your feedback.


You're welcome. Properly oiling your valves and greasing your slides (as well as making sure that none of the screws & valve caps are overly tight) can potentially make a big difference, and they're easy and cheap to try.
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LittleRusty wrote:
TheAidanAU wrote:
When to go from student to intermediate horn?


My opinion, formed through information gleaned on here over the last decade, is never. Others may disagree, many are more qualified to answer than me.

But from everything I have read, there really isn't a need for intermediate horns, nor is there much to distinguish them from the lower tier for the poorer ones, or from the upper tier for the better intermediate models.

The horn is probably not holding you back. Your money would be better spent on getting a private teacher to guide you through the process.

BTW, knowing what brand and model you currently play will aid people in providing more informed/specific answers.


This. ☝️☝️

As LittleRusty mentioned above, you need lessons, the two things that will help your progress more than ANYTHING are practice and private lessons. You need both because you need to understand what and how to practice.

Brad
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PMonteiro
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
The playing problem (upper range) that you mentioned is likely because you are not using 'good technique' for that range - and it is a SKILL that needs to be learned, not simply rim pressure and lip strength.
There are lots of thoughts and suggestions about 'embouchure' in the FUNDAMENTALS section.


I'm under the impression that many student horns aren't optimized for playing in the upper range since many beginners and students don't have a need for it. The horn is built to make the lower and mid range sound good at the expense of upper range slotting. Most student horns should get you up to high C decently, but beyond that is significantly harder. Most student horns I've played are tight up high (my Blessing in particular barely wants to make any sound above high C), while pro horns don't fight back as hard and actually have reachable slots up there. Don't get me wrong, proper technique is important, but equipment does have an impact.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheAidanAU wrote:
I'm sorry, I thought I included the brand. I have an Etude ETR-100 Series. Also, thank you for your opinion, it is very appreciated.


A base student Yamaha (YTR-2335) would be a "step-up" by comparison.

All of the advice here about the importance of finding a good teacher, working the fundamentals, etc. is spot on, but that doesn't mean those things wont be easier and go farther faster with a better instrument.

In my opinion (so not worth 2 cents), Yamaha 4-series and 5-series horns are the only real intermediates out there in production now (there were a lot more 50 years ago). CarolBrass has some offerings in this tier as well, but the price difference vs pro is so small that it doesn't seem worth it to me there.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
TheAidanAU wrote:
I'm sorry, I thought I included the brand. I have an Etude ETR-100 Series. Also, thank you for your opinion, it is very appreciated.


A base student Yamaha (YTR-2335) would be a "step-up" by comparison.

All of the advice here about the importance of finding a good teacher, working the fundamentals, etc. is spot on, but that doesn't mean those things wont be easier and go farther faster with a better instrument.

In my opinion (so not worth 2 cents), Yamaha 4-series and 5-series horns are the only real intermediates out there in production now (there were a lot more 50 years ago). CarolBrass has some offerings in this tier as well, but the price difference vs pro is so small that it doesn't seem worth it to me there.

My initial advice was given prior to the OP telling us what trumpet he is playing now.

I agree that there are better horns than he is currently using and that he might proceed faster with a better horn.

In fact we all often get a boost mentally by getting a new instrument.

But I still think that the OP would benefit from lessons, or at a minimum access to a more seasoned trumpet player to give advice and evaluate the instruments that the OP considers purchasing.

Getting advice from the internet on which instrument makes and models are appropriate is certainly wise, but the evaluation of individual instruments and their wear and build quality is something we cannot provide via the forum.
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