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Bryant Jordan Veteran Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2015 Posts: 410 Location: Utah, USA
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Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 5:04 pm Post subject: Gold Plating? |
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Has anyone had their horn gold plated recently? If so, why did you do it? And was it worth it? |
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Goby Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Jun 2017 Posts: 650
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Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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Gold is too expensive right now. Andersen is charging roughly $3000 for gold plate and prep work. For that kind of money, you could have a brand new horn custom made from almost any builder in the world. |
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Bryant Jordan Veteran Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2015 Posts: 410 Location: Utah, USA
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Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 6:55 am Post subject: |
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Great, thanks for letting me know. |
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trpthrld Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Mar 2007 Posts: 4808
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Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 8:34 am Post subject: |
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Some people say their horn plays different after gold plating, usually that it takes a bit of "edge" off the sound. That is most likely because a gold plated horn has silver plate underneath.
One thing to keep in mind - and this is from my personal experience - gold plate will fade rather quickly from its original brilliance. And it can streak.
Also from my experience, gold plated horns on resale don't really bring that much extra unless the shine is brilliant.
This all being said, the esthetics of seeing a gold plated horn is kinda cool. _________________ Tim Wendt
www.trumpetherald.com/marketplace.php?task=detail&id=146827&s=The-Best-Trumpet-Lead-Pipe-Swab-EVER--
www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPWAJqghk24&feature=youtu.be |
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yourbrass Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2011 Posts: 3635 Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 9:17 am Post subject: |
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trpthrld wrote: | Some people say their horn plays different after gold plating, usually that it takes a bit of "edge" off the sound. That is most likely because a gold plated horn has silver plate underneath.
One thing to keep in mind - and this is from my personal experience - gold plate will fade rather quickly from its original brilliance. And it can streak.
Also from my experience, gold plated horns on resale don't really bring that much extra unless the shine is brilliant.
This all being said, the esthetics of seeing a gold plated horn is kinda cool. |
Second to Tim, I had a Bach gold plated at ASP many years ago ($400!) and it didn't play the same when it came back. Anderson does, IMO, the best gold-plating around and for mouthpieces it's great, but I won't do another horn that way.
-Lionel _________________ "Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/ |
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cgooding Veteran Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2001 Posts: 191 Location: Tallahassee, FL
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Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 10:26 am Post subject: |
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Anderson gold plated my Callet Jazz almost 20 years ago. It has perhaps faded slightly but still looks great. Keeping it clean really helps prolong the life of the plating. _________________ "We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams." |
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SterlingBell Regular Member
Joined: 28 Dec 2018 Posts: 65
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Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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I purchased my Schilke P5-4 from the factory in gold plate in 1980. At that time the cost of the instrument was $1081.25. The finish is just starting to wear at contact points. I purchased a Bach 43 Sterling Bell trumpet in 1990 and sent it out to be gold plated when I started wearing through the lacquer after three months. For me, gold is much harder for my skin chemistry to break down. Hope that helps. |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2441
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Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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I absolutely love gold plated horns - but I prefer to let the first owner eat the cost, because on resale, you just don't get much(if anything) back. That being said, it is my finish of choice because it stands up to aggressive skin PH, it wont tarnish, it wont peel off or discolor with age, and it looks spectacular on day 1.
You do have to watch out for budget platers though - I have seen a lot of discount jobs that failed too soon.
(The horn in my avatar: March 11, 1915 gold plated) _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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gregplo Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Jan 2002 Posts: 505 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 4:49 am Post subject: |
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OldSchoolEuph wrote: | I absolutely love gold plated horns - but I prefer to let the first owner eat the cost, because on resale, you just don't get much(if anything) back. That being said, it is my finish of choice because it stands up to aggressive skin PH, it wont tarnish, it wont peel off or discolor with age, and it looks spectacular on day 1.
You do have to watch out for budget platers though - I have seen a lot of discount jobs that failed too soon.
(The horn in my avatar: March 11, 1915 gold plated) |
I've had a few factory gold plated horns in the past (Conn and Stomvi), and have a beautiful Conn Vintage One gold plated horn right now. The silver under the gold plating does tarnish, and I still have to use a soft silver jewelry polishing cloth to clear that tarnish away...which is what I was told to do by the Conn-Selmer rep when I got my first gold plated V1. _________________ Best Regards,
Greg
Edwards Gen II
P. Mauriat PMT-75 (Ti/Copper)
Conn 61B
Benge 90B
Conn 80B LB
CarolBrass Arturo Sandoval Pocket Trumpet
CarolBrass CFL-620R
Getzen CB 610
Remember...when He returns, the trumpet shall sound.... |
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Shark01 Veteran Member
Joined: 10 Jun 2017 Posts: 283
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Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 11:07 am Post subject: |
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SterlingBell wrote: | For me, gold is much harder for my skin chemistry to break down. Hope that helps. |
This is true for me also...... |
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Bryant Jordan Veteran Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2015 Posts: 410 Location: Utah, USA
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Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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I got quoted weeeeeell over $3000 form Anderson Plating to have my horn gold plated, so that will likely never happen. But hey! Silver is still pretty! |
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yourbrass Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2011 Posts: 3635 Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 6:54 am Post subject: |
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You're better off w/silver. Just wipe it down after playing each day w/isopropyl alcohol and you'll get many years of beautiful appearance out of it. _________________ "Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/ |
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dstpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1287
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Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2022 8:34 am Post subject: |
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This subject kind of came up in another current TH thread, so I thought I’d add to this TH thread from a year ago.
============
If you want gold plating and send a silver plated trumpet to Anderson, they will completely strip it and start the process all over, even if you had just bought it brand new! I got this info 2-3 years ago from someone who worked at Anderson for a number of years. But why would Anderson charge so much for gold on a new horn from a factory? From a few brief chats I've had with the individuals who've answered the phone there, I get the impression that they will be happy to gold plate any horn…but expect to pay! My takeaway is, they think it's overkill, but if someone wants gold, then they'll do it...yet again, for a steep price! I really think this has come about as a result of players who have expected absolute perfection in the finished product, since they are paying so much for the gold plating. Anderson has probably had more than their fare share of complaints and "redos" to where it has driven them to the point of pricing any gold plating very high. That's my guess, anyway.
I have priced gold plating on new horns from Netherlands, Germany, and Austria, and all of these builders/companies quoted in 2021 between $900-1200 (USD) additional to have a new horn gold plated. To have silver rather than lacquer on a new trumpet is often about $200 additional here in the States as well as in Europe. The UK, as I've been told, no longer has plating companies that will fully gold plate a trumpet. I know that Eclipse will still gold plate "detachables" (slides, valve tops/bottoms/et al), but they have not gold plated an entire horn in a few years. The word was that those plating companies went out of business, and the ones that remain are mainly servicing aerospace and other industries where gold plating is generally not needed...at least that's my takeaway from a couple of chats with a knowledgable mate there.
On a used horn, the prep work can really vary, pending what might be needed. Brass techs have had experiences with players who expect the final product to look new, and especially if the customer is willing to shell out the cash for replating in gold. If the dents, dings, scratches, et al, can't be completely removed (due to where they may be on the horn), then they will probably shy away from taking on the project. They certainly don't want to try to prep a horn with a brushed finish, since the end result will just look trashy. Trying to match a matte finish created with either bead blasting or a scratch process is basically impossible, especially if they have to do any buffing, so I've heard/read.
I had three horns gold plated this past fall, but they were done at a company other than Anderson: Theta Plate in Albuquerque, NM. They do only 18K gold, whereas, Anderson does 24K. The companies in Europe all do 24K, so I’ve been told. My (very limited) understanding is, 18K is harder (so more durable over time?), but 24K has more of that "orangish" gold appearance to it that can really be beautiful to the eyes. Other players have seen my 18K gold plated horns and asked if it was gold lacquer or plate, so the appearance is not as convincing. I also have horns that I bought new gold plated, and those really look good! The three that were gold plated with 18K were for the purpose of being able to leave horns out and not worry about the quicker oxidation that happens to silver. I spent $1100 on each horn, and that included the additional $100 per horn to have the aluminum valve stems gold plated…a much dressier look, IMHO. (Aluminum requires an extra step or two to prep for gold.)
Note: Theta Plate does not have inventory sit for more than 4-5 days, merely due to the small size of their facility, so you would get your horn back much faster than sending to Anderson, which could be at least six weeks. (Remember, too, that Anderson closes down their plating two times out of the year, in January and July, for government-mandated cleaning of the tanks. This process supposedly takes two weeks, but I don’t think it is that long, since they have a huge cash cow sitting across the street: Bach!) Another plus about Theta Plate is, they use bungs or stoppers in all openings (valve casings, leadpipe and slide ends, as well as down the bell). In other words, I got the horns back (as I had sent, in parts) and merely lubricated and reassembled. I did not have to do any lapping of slides or valves, which is a necessity for any horn sent to Anderson; they refuse to use bungs/stoppers. My guess about this is they don’t want a bung falling out during the process in the tanks and then be held accountable to lap areas afterward.
How do the horns look now after several months: just fine, and I think I’ll get years out of this gold plating.
All three trumpets were originally in silver, two relatively new and one almost 20 years old. I did the prep work by thoroughly cleaning and polishing the horn and then taping the inner slide legs. I was not expecting perfection in appearance and did not care about some of the minor scratches on the horns. There were no dents/dings, and if there had been, I would have had a local brass tech remove them. There was no missing silver in areas. So how do they look? Acceptable to me, since my main concern was getting gold on them to avoid having to mess with silver. Now, here's what will get some upset due to differing opinions...
The gold plating definitely affected the tonal profiles on all of the horns(!), albeit minor attenuation/dampening of overtones. Would I do this again? Maybe, but only if the horn being sent already had lots of highs/overtones in the sound to where I wouldn't mind having some of those highs "knocked off.” I believe most in an audience wouldn’t notice the difference, but to us as players, we might. All three horns were on the bright side of the spectrum, if I could put it that way, so I wasn’t too concerned with any change. However, having heard from so many sources that it wouldn’t change anything, I played each horn when they arrived, fully expecting no change. At first I thought I was just “thinking” there was a change in the sound merely due to the new appearance, that it was a simple psychological experience, but as I continued to play each, I could tell it was a real change. Did those changes bother me? In some ways, I missed the silver, but in many ways, it was negligible and if nothing else, tolerable.
Additional googled results on the subject:
https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=gold+plating+site%3Atrumpetherald.com&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12663 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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dstpt wrote: | This subject kind of came up in another current TH thread, so I thought I’d add to this TH thread from a year ago.
============
If you want gold plating and send a silver plated trumpet to Anderson, they will completely strip it and start the process all over, even if you had just bought it brand new! I got this info 2-3 years ago from someone who worked at Anderson for a number of years. But why would Anderson charge so much for gold on a new horn from a factory? From a few brief chats I've had with the individuals who've answered the phone there, I get the impression that they will be happy to gold plate any horn…but expect to pay! My takeaway is, they think it's overkill, but if someone wants gold, then they'll do it...yet again, for a steep price! I really think this has come about as a result of players who have expected absolute perfection in the finished product, since they are paying so much for the gold plating Anderson has probably had more than their fare share of complaints and "redos" to where it has driven them to the point of pricing any gold plating very high. That's my guess, anyway.
I have priced gold plating on new horns from Netherlands, Germany, and Austria, and all of these builders/companies quoted in 2021 between $900-1200 (USD) additional to have a new horn gold plated. To have silver rather than lacquer on a new trumpet is often about $200 additional here in the States as well as in Europe. The UK, as I've been told, no longer has plating companies that will fully gold plate a trumpet. I know that Eclipse will still gold plate "detachables" (slides, valve tops/bottoms/et al), but they have not gold plated an entire horn in a few years. The word was that those plating companies went out of business, and the ones that remain are mainly servicing aerospace and other industries where gold plating is generally not needed...at least that's my takeaway from a couple of chats with a knowledgable mate there.
On a used horn, the prep work can really vary, pending what might be needed. Brass techs have had experiences with players who expect the final product to look new, and especially if the customer is willing to shell out the cash for replating in gold. If the dents, dings, scratches, et al, can't be completely removed (due to where they may be on the horn), then they will probably shy away from taking on the project. They certainly don't want to try to prep a horn with a brushed finish, since the end result will just look trashy. Trying to match a matte finish created with either bead blasting or a scratch process is basically impossible, especially if they have to do any buffing, so I've heard/read.
I had three horns gold plated this past fall, but they were done at a company other than Anderson: Theta Plate in Albuquerque, NM. They do only 18K gold, whereas, Anderson does 24K. The companies in Europe all do 24K, so I’ve been told. My (very limited) understanding is, 18K is harder (so more durable over time?), but 24K has more of that "orangish" gold appearance to it that can really be beautiful to the eyes. Other players have seen my 18K gold plated horns and asked if it was gold lacquer or plate, so the appearance is not as convincing. I also have horns that I bought new gold plated, and those really look good! The three that were gold plated with 18K were for the purpose of being able to leave horns out and not worry about the quicker oxidation that happens to silver. I spent $1100 on each horn, and that included the additional $100 per horn to have the aluminum valve stems gold plated…a much dressier look, IMHO. (Aluminum requires an extra step or two to prep for gold.)
Note: Theta Plate does not have inventory sit for more than 4-5 days, merely due to the small size of their facility, so you would get your horn back much faster than sending to Anderson, which could be at least six weeks. (Remember, too, that Anderson closes down their plating two times out of the year, in January and July, for government-mandated cleaning of the tanks. This process supposedly takes two weeks, but I don’t think it is that long, since they have a huge cash cow sitting across the street: Bach!) Another plus about Theta Plate is, they use bungs or stoppers in all openings (valve casings, leadpipe and slide ends, as well as down the bell). In other words, I got the horns back (as I had sent, in parts) and merely lubricated and reassembled. I did not have to do any lapping of slides or valves, which is a necessity for any horn sent to Anderson; they refuse to use bungs/stoppers. My guess about this is they don’t want a bung falling out during the process in the tanks and then be held accountable to lap areas afterward.
How do the horns look now after several months: just fine, and I think I’ll get years out of this gold plating.
All three trumpets were originally in silver, two relatively new and one almost 20 years old. I did the prep work by thoroughly cleaning and polishing the horn and then taping the inner slide legs. I was not expecting perfection in appearance and did not care about some of the minor scratches on the horns. There were no dents/dings, and if there had been, I would have had a local brass tech remove them. There was no missing silver in areas. So how do they look? Acceptable to me, since my main concern was getting gold on them to avoid having to mess with silver. Now, here's what will get some upset due to differing opinions...
The gold plating definitely affected the tonal profiles on all of the horns(!), albeit minor attenuation/dampening of overtones. Would I do this again? Maybe, but only if the horn being sent already had lots of highs/overtones in the sound to where I wouldn't mind having some of those highs "knocked off.” I believe most in an audience wouldn’t notice the difference, but to us as players, we might. All three horns were on the bright side of the spectrum, if I could put it that way, so I wasn’t too concerned with any change. However, having heard from so many sources that it wouldn’t change anything, I played each horn when they arrived, fully expecting no change. At first I thought I was just “thinking” there was a change in the sound merely due to the new appearance, that it was a simple psychological experience, but as I continued to play each, I could tell it was a real change. Did those changes bother me? In some ways, I missed the silver, but in many ways, it was negligible and if nothing else, tolerable.
Additional googled results on the subject:
https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=gold+plating+site%3Atrumpetherald.com&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 |
Are you saying you think Anderson charges too much?
Btw, years back when Larry Souza had my trumpet replated at Anderson he told me that part of the tech’s prep work was to install the bungs and masking to define where the plating was to go.
I also know that one could have Anderson do the whole job, not just the plating, so perhaps if they are doing 100% that is when bungs aren’t used? |
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dstpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1287
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Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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LittleRusty wrote: | Are you saying you think Anderson charges too much? | Wait. Let me think before I respond. Uhhhh...still trying to understand the question...I'll work on it and get back to you. Scratching my head. Tough one.
LittleRusty wrote: | Btw, years back when Larry Souza had my trumpet replated at Anderson he told me that part of the tech’s prep work was to install the bungs and masking to define where the plating was to go. | So you're saying at one point, they had a system, one where they did use bungs, and that that and masking was done to "define" where the plating was to go...so they wouldn't get confused or something?! I mean, I guess those would be good reminders, if nothing else!
LittleRusty wrote: | I also know that one could have Anderson do the whole job, not just the plating, so perhaps if they are doing 100% that is when bungs aren’t used? | The lady who answers the phone told me that they do not use them. That was fall 2021. Not sure what was done prior to or even currently. I had also heard from various brass techs that for any trumpet they prep and send to Anderson for plating will later require light lapping of valves and slides prior to reassembly, since they don't use bungs. (Still pondering your first question. Really taking a lot of brain power, that one is. Yoda talk.) |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12663 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2022 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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dstpt wrote: | LittleRusty wrote: | Btw, years back when Larry Souza had my trumpet replated at Anderson he told me that part of the tech’s prep work was to install the bungs and masking to define where the plating was to go. | So you're saying at one point, they had a system, one where they did use bungs, and that that and masking uwas done to "define" where the plating was to go...so they wouldn't get confused or something?! I mean, I guess those would be good reminders, if nothing else! |
I guess you spent too much brainpower on my first, facetious, question.
No, I am not saying that at all.
What I am saying is that there might have been a difference in processes where a horn was fully prepped by a tech and Anderson only did the plating and one where Anderson did the prep in house and did the plating.
If nothing else masking and blocking the solution from reaching into all areas would reduce the amount of precious metals required.
But who knows, I could be remembering that old conversation and subsequent things I read about Anderson plating options wrong.
Edit: maybe I should state clearer. My thoughts on this are based on memories of conversations and posts and I could be completely off. I was just trying to add to the conversation. |
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dstpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1287
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Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2022 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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LittleRusty wrote: | ...I could be completely off. I was just trying to add to the conversation. | I can relate. I think that about sums up every comment I make on TH...especially the first sentence I just quoted! |
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Tom LeCompte Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Mar 2004 Posts: 3341 Location: Naperville, Illinois
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Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2022 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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I have three horns in gold. Still nice and shiny. I also have a trombone where the gold wash faded - but it's 80 years old.
The rule of thumb is that gold plating costs what an ounce of gold costs - half an ounce of gold and the remainder for prep work. $3000 sounds a bit high; one might do better by going through a tech.
As far as sound, I think this is one of those cases where if the player thinks it makes the sound brighter, the sound is brighter. Darker, and the sound gets darker. In short, the sound concept matters more than the physics. Note that there is half an ounce on the horn, so less than a quarter-ounce on the bell, and a very light bell (say a Schilke "beryllium") is 8 ounces, it's 4% on the weight. |
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dr_trumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Nov 2001 Posts: 2533 Location: Cope, IN
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Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2022 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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Goby wrote: | Gold is too expensive right now. Andersen is charging roughly $3000 for gold plate and prep work. For that kind of money, you could have a brand new horn custom made from almost any builder in the world. |
Can you help with a list of these custom makers who make horns for $3000? I don't know of any. _________________ Dr. Albert L. Lilly, III DM
Artist/Clinician for Vincent Bach Trumpets (Conn-Selmer)
Principal Trumpet, Hendricks Symphony (Avon, IN)
Arranger/Composer; Lilly Music |
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dstpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1287
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Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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dr_trumpet wrote: | Goby wrote: | Gold is too expensive right now. Andersen is charging roughly $3000 for gold plate and prep work. For that kind of money, you could have a brand new horn custom made from almost any builder in the world. |
Can you help with a list of these custom makers who make horns for $3000? I don't know of any. | Sorry for creating any confusion here. I revived this thread earlier this evening. Goby made that comment over a year ago (May 2021). We are supposed to get email notifications on any TH thread update in which we've participated (unless we've unsubscribed to it), but in reality, the TH system does not always generate those emails, so Goby may not see your question. |
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