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Jaw04 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 Dec 2015 Posts: 900 Location: Bay Area, California
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Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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A teacher can teach you some good knowledge about how brass playing works and make recommendations, but they can absolutely not help you figure out YOUR embouchure. Only you can do that. |
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Billy B Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
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Posted: Sat May 15, 2021 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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I change student's embouchures all the time without ever mentioning it to them. _________________ Bill Bergren |
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mcstock Veteran Member
Joined: 25 Nov 2001 Posts: 466 Location: Norman, OK
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Posted: Sat May 15, 2021 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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Billy B wrote: | I change student's embouchures all the time without ever mentioning it to them. |
Bill,
Are there circumstances where you do a traditional “say ‘mmm’ put the mouthpiece here and play a note” type of embouchure change?
Matt _________________ “It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows.”
Epictetus |
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Billy B Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
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Posted: Sat May 15, 2021 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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mcstock wrote: | Billy B wrote: | I change student's embouchures all the time without ever mentioning it to them. |
Bill,
Are there circumstances where you do a traditional “say ‘mmm’ put the mouthpiece here and play a note” type of embouchure change?
Matt |
That is standard procedure with every student except I never mention where to place the mouthpiece.
We never mention embouchure.
"Copy this" _________________ Bill Bergren
Last edited by Billy B on Sat May 15, 2021 7:05 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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mafields627 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Nov 2001 Posts: 3776 Location: AL
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Posted: Sat May 15, 2021 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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Billy B wrote: | I change student's embouchures all the time without ever mentioning it to them. |
Bill,
What methods do you use to accomplish that? I gather that is how Mr. Adam corrected students and it's fascinating to me. _________________ --Matt--
No representation is made that the quality of this post is greater than the quality of that of any other poster. Oh, and get a teacher! |
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Billy B Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
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Posted: Sat May 15, 2021 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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mafields627 wrote: | Billy B wrote: | I change student's embouchures all the time without ever mentioning it to them. |
Bill,
What methods do you use to accomplish that? I gather that is how Mr. Adam corrected students and it's fascinating to me. |
There are different ways including pitch bending, playing exercises in a certain manner, and even just moving the music stand to a different position.
Mr. Adam told me his colleague Herb Mueller came to him for help getting his sound straightened out. He insisted though that Mr. Adam not change his embouchure. At the end of two hours Herb sounded great but then went over to the mirror. "Damn it Adam, I told you not to change my embouchure"! _________________ Bill Bergren |
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mafields627 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Nov 2001 Posts: 3776 Location: AL
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Posted: Sat May 15, 2021 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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Billy B wrote: |
There are different ways including pitch bending, playing exercises in a certain manner, and even just moving the music stand to a different position.
Mr. Adam told me his colleague Herb Mueller came to him for help getting his sound straightened out. He insisted though that Mr. Adam not change his embouchure. At the end of two hours Herb sounded great but then went over to the mirror. "Damn it Adam, I told you not to change my embouchure"! |
That's great info. Thanks for the reply. _________________ --Matt--
No representation is made that the quality of this post is greater than the quality of that of any other poster. Oh, and get a teacher! |
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Billy B Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
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Posted: Sat May 15, 2021 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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mafields627 wrote: | Billy B wrote: |
There are different ways including pitch bending, playing exercises in a certain manner, and even just moving the music stand to a different position.
Mr. Adam told me his colleague Herb Mueller came to him for help getting his sound straightened out. He insisted though that Mr. Adam not change his embouchure. At the end of two hours Herb sounded great but then went over to the mirror. "Damn it Adam, I told you not to change my embouchure"! |
That's great info. Thanks for the reply. |
There are so many variables it is impossible to nail down specific fixes without hearing the student but I think you get the general idea. _________________ Bill Bergren |
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PhxHorn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jan 2003 Posts: 2190 Location: Phoenix, AZ
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Posted: Tue May 25, 2021 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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I've made 2 or 3 changes over the years. The first was pretty major, in high school, and it took a few weeks to really get it together. The others were faster. If it's an improvement overall, it will be obvious pretty quickly. |
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SMrtn Veteran Member
Joined: 29 Oct 2014 Posts: 367 Location: Spain
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Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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Jaw04 wrote: | I remember in college thinking an embouchure change was like a life-altering experience akin to getting a prosthetic leg and needing to learn how to use it properly. That was my experience when my teacher had me lower my mouthpiece placement. As an older and hopefully wiser musician, I have found that I am constantly changing my embouchure in order to play at my very best. I rediscover my embouchure every day and make it work to the best of my ability.
I recommend not thinking about it as a monumental shift and instead try to figure out how to play with a great sound and ease of access to upper register, no matter where the mouthpiece is placed on your lips or what you do with the muscles and lips of your face each day. Don't just do what a teacher tells you to do and "trust the process." It might feel a bit weird but you should be able to play. I really don't think you should be doing an embouchure change to a spot where you sound terrible and have no access throughout your entire range. You need to make playing work for YOU. Find the spot where your playing is optimized.
There is no timetable for return. You did not tear your ACL. You are trying to play trumpet to the best of your abilities. I wouldn't solely trust any teacher with that process to be honest, you need to trust yourself in cooperation with your teacher. You have to make your playing better each day not just follow a physical therapy routine.
Spend more time studying and adjusting what you "do" with your face than how you set up or where you place the mouthpiece. I think placement figures itself out, but mechanics take careful practice.
I honestly don't know if this advice will be helpful to you, but I know it would have been helpful to me when I was in my second year of college. I am talking to my past self. |
This sounds as if it's written by someone who not only knows what he's talking about, but also as if it's written by a clear thinker and communicator.
I'm taking this advice for myself also, so...thank you. |
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Rhondo Veteran Member
Joined: 22 Oct 2021 Posts: 209 Location: California
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Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2021 11:13 am Post subject: |
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I'm getting back to playing just in this past week after not playing for 27 years. I only played for 2 years concluding with a year in an 'intermediate' college orchestra. Within that last year I added a flugelhorn to my trumpet playing and don't recall there being much of a transition between the 2 instruments at all. I don't know what mouthpiece I had on the flugelhorn and if it was an equivalent or similar to the Bach 5c I was using for trumpet or not, but I never even thought of an embouchure change. Maybe I made some kind of adjustment without knowing it. Granted I was not an advanced player and probably didn't play anything in the upper register.
Our orchestra had 3 trumpets and I had the lead part in a Christmas tune we rehearsed for but never got to perform at the Orange County Ca (John Wayne) airport. The performance was canceled 2 weeks before the date because of the county bankruptcy in 1994… I don't remember the song but I recall the part that I had sounded beautiful. To find that sound again and to hear the sound playing in an orchestra is a big reason I came back to playing now. |
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Patrick Hasselbank Regular Member
Joined: 02 Aug 2021 Posts: 49 Location: German
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Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2021 11:12 pm Post subject: Re: Embouchure change: how long did it take? |
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trumpetcadet wrote: | Hi everybody!
As per the title, I wanted to ask how long did it take for you to be back on your feet after an embouchure change, and what your milestones were during the process. Yes, I am going through an embouchure change myself and I have a great teacher whom I trust, no matter how long it will take me to be back at full speed. I am not looking for embouchure tips, just your experience.
I think we often overlook the time factor in such a delicate process such as changing a trumpet embouchure, and it would be great to know in which timeframe things happen on average. |
Strange question. It depends on only on your skills. _________________ Check out my scores: https://musescore.com/sheetmusic
The program of training me as a musician: https://musescore.com/courses/trumpet |
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gstump Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Nov 2006 Posts: 934
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Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 6:54 am Post subject: |
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My Trumpet teacher before Caruso was Bruce Revesz. Bruce is a Vacchiano student was a long time member of New York Opera.
I was a Sophomore in college. I studied with Bruce during the summers. I played way off to the side and puffed my cheeks. I could play loud with a big raspy sound and good high range. But I had no lower dynamic control. I basically sucked.
Bruce placed the mouthpiece in the middle, 2/3 upper lip and 1/3 lower lip. He said no notes above G on top of staff for 6 weeks. My sound really improved to the point where back at college, a respected upper class-man knocked on my practice room door and complimented my improved tone. BTW, that never happens at music school!
But ignoring my request to lay low and not overdue it the band director insisted I play the first parts. Louie Marinni wrote killer arrangements up to high F. My trumpet professor was out on sick leave for 2 months so I had no support.
My nice sound went to hell but the new embouchure held and things got better years later.
The moral to this windy story: listen to your trumpet teacher and do not overdue it for a few months. _________________ Schilke B5
Couesnon Flug (1967)
Funk Brothers Horn Section/Caruso Student |
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jasonre92 New Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2021 Posts: 2
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Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 1:08 am Post subject: |
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I think it’s also good to remember that your teacher may lose confidence sometimes through those embochure changes. It’s easy for someone to say your chops should look like this, or this is how it should work. I often think that’s a good starting point, and once that has gotten to feel a bit more natural/common practice, then it’s time to move away from the mirror and let it develop yourself.
The most common issue I see is with high breathing that pulls the top lip out of the mouthpiece. |
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Lionel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Jul 2016 Posts: 783
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Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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Unless you or your teacher understands the physics of embouchure? Your results after changing your embouchure are probably going to be hit or miss. You may improve, sure. But my guess is that without the complete understanding of chops such as is spelled out in Stevens-Costello?
You'll probably find yourself switching from one limited embouchure to another one. Although perhaps a slightly less but still limited embouchure. Heck maybe that would be enough for some of you. You add a little more or less of one lip and in a month or so your range goes from High C to the F above. And maybe that's good enough for what you want to do. I get that.
But it isn't enough for me. I want the whole enchilada. From Low F# to Triple C. And in my opinion any embouchure change that is suggested that does not guarantee that kind of register is not for me. But to answer the question,
I'm currently approaching my 24th month on a radical embouchure change. My practice room range tends to hover between E above Double C to almost a perfect fourth above. So basically I'm closing in on the triple C. And as for bandstand ready register?
Good question. Because two years isn't really enough time to develop a solid bandstand, gig ready set of chops. I do play in a nice local ensemble. We've been rehearsing outdoors during the epidemic. Being cautious, I've watched my register in rehearsal go from barely an E above the tuning note to the High C. But again, two years is still a beginner.
That said I'm absolutely confident that my bandstand ready range will rapidly approach my practice room register. At least in practice I'm already blowing some lead lines along with records.
The key to my progress has been physics. Mostly as directed by the late Roy Stevens in his book. Plus a few important and novel concepts of my own. _________________ "Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980). |
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