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Best vintage trumpet for $350?


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Filius
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 10:56 am    Post subject: Best vintage trumpet for $350? Reply with quote

I've had an itch for a new (to me) vintage trumpet. I have a $350 auction site gift card to spend.

I wanted to limit it to a "pro" model, but it seems like in my price range I'd be taking a chance on something that's not in great shape. I've looked mainly at various models of Conn Victor, including the 80A although I realize that's not a trumpet.

So a couple of questions:

1. Is there a specific model on the pro level that could fall into my price range in decent shape that you recommend?

2. If a pro model in good condition is out of the question, what's the next best thing for the money?

And a bonus question: Any opinions on Pan American cornets? I've seen some gorgeous specimens in my range which are very tempting, but in the few YouTube videos I've seen, they don't sound too impressive.

I would appreciate any opinions and insights.

Thanks!
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cplt
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you’re lucky and patient, you can find a 1920s Conn 22B that doesn’t need any work for that price. I bought one for less than $400 a few years ago (2014ish?) that still has excellent compression.

It can be a gamble, though: years before that, I bought one for around the same price, but it desperately needed a valve job, which nowadays run at least $450. (I think it set me back $350ish in 2006.)

They’re great horns, though, and play a lot like a good Bach, despite the many differences in construction.

Edit: Something like this one is a bit over your budget, but pretty much what you're looking for: https://www.ebay.com/itm/333967076843?hash=item4dc1fd2deb%3Ag%3A0XwAAOSwKYNga1Gq&nma=true&si=H7VP9Mcowr490D1b9qe8ApwRxSU%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

(Knowing that that link will break eventually, it's a 1920s 22B in good shape for $400.)

I should add that if you're luckier/even more patient, you might be able to find a 2B or a 26B within your budget. I've never played a 26B, but the 2B's I have played have all been very good instruments. Again, however, many of them need valve work.

The 2B is a bit brighter than the 22B, at least in my hands. It could be the bell material, though: my 2B is marked with an A on the valve casing (not sure what that designation means), while my 22B has a * (indicating a gold brass bell, if I'm not mistaken?).

I should also add not to be scared off by the 22B's .438" bore. It doesn't play tight at all.


Last edited by cplt on Wed May 12, 2021 2:52 pm; edited 2 times in total
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For $350, it's unlikely that you'll find a horn in good condition that is NOW considered 'pro quality'. You might find older models that used to be 'pro quality', but I doubt they are still considered to be so.
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giakara
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In that price range you can find a very good 80A from the 30's or 40's , fantastic horns and very fun to play it , just be careful to choose the right mpc

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JonathanM
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've had scores of vintage horns and it's always a toss-up how one will play. Most aren't bad, if they've been cared for, but vintage is, well, vintage.

I took a shot on an Olds Ambassador here a few months ago and got a superb horn for about $160 (that was the cost + shipping). Good valves, pretty good body, but it did need a bit of soldering. $90 bucks later, and that Ambassador is one of the best horns I've played - vintage or new. Great tone, great valves... Very nice. Mine is from '54, maybe one of the last horns made in the old LA Olds factory. There are so many Ambassadors around that they can be picked up at prices under the amount you're considering. Better ones may be a bit more, but there's some for sale at TH often, too.

Good luck - and let us know how your search turns out.
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Rwwilson
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have purchased a number of vintage horns over the past several years. Doing so has caused me to learn a few things that I will share. There are good horns out there for reasonable prices. I bought a 1906 Holton cornet that was in excellent un-restored condition for $175. It looks and plays like a dream. I bought a 1947 King Silvertone Cornet that had been previously restored for $500. After I got it I found that the plating on the valves was in bad shape. I liked the horn and so had them rebuilt. This cost almost as much as I paid for the horn. Bottom line, I have a excellent vintage silver bell cornet but I paid nearly $1000. If you are patient you can find good examples of pro level vintage horns for a few hundred dollars. One example is post war Olds Supers. They seem to be fairly abundant. They will have some dents and the finish may be in bad shape. If you want them to look new you are looking at around $700 for a full refurbishing. Add more if the valves need work. What I'm getting at is know what you are getting. Look for photos of the valves and ask about compression. Decide if you want a looker or a player. In most cases a few small dents and dings won't impact the way the horn plays. Missing silver plate or lacquer doesn't impact the sound either. Finally it seems to me that cornets are less expensive than trumpets of the same model.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got my Selmer Radial for $350 about a decade ago.
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Richard III
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

King Liberty if you shop hard enough, it will be there.
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royjohn
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In addition to the Ambassador and King Liberty that have already been mentioned, and loads of pro model cornets (think King Master Model), there are several vintage Holtons, such as the Revelation (Model 45, 4, Symphony (Model 47) and Stratodyne (49) and the Revelation large bore (51). Also some Bueschers to look for, and Blessings. I don't know those very well, but you can look them up. All these not so sought after, but genuinely pro horns and very good players.

Little story...I once bought a 1920's Buescher for parts for about $50. The well known seller of vintage horns said the valves were shot. When I got the horn it squawked like a duck, but when I took it apart, I found a half inch high felt washer down in one of the valves toward the bottom. Took that out and the valves were tighter than a new horn and the horn, which was in great condition, played flawlessly. I still have it. Evidently someone at the store did not have time to thoroughly check out this horn. It is possible to run into things like this. On another occasion I found a trumpet on ebay called a "student Conn." However, it looked like a C trumpet and I ended up with a rare 1934 Harry Glantz model C trumpet in pristine shape. That was another one around $100.

So, long story short, these bargains exist out there along with horns that look great but have shot valves...so get a return privilege it you can.
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rmch
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like what cplt said about being patient - that's the key with finding a deal on older horns. For around your budget - maybe a little less ($250) or maybe a little more (up to $500) - you can find horns that might not look pretty but still play great. Once in a while, you'll find one that looks pretty AND plays great! This is especially true with horns that have characteristics that are not popular today (e.g. smaller bores, tighter wraps, tighter bell flares, etc.). Some of those are outright "peashooters;" many are a little more balanced in their designs. Certain old horns have a bit of a cult following which will drive their prices a little higher. My impression over the years is that cornets tend to be a little bit cheaper compared to trumpets from the same brand at the same time, but there are many exceptions to that rule.

Old horns from Conn, King (or HN White, as they were previously known), Keefer (or Distin, as they were previously known), Buescher, Vega, York, Olds, Harry B Jay, Boston, and Holton regularly pop up on Ebay, Reverb, the Facebook "Trumpets for Sale" group, and the TH Marketplace. Good horns from France around your budget - such as Couesnon (excluding the flugels which have achieved cult status), Courtois, and even Selmer or Besson - also show up sometimes, but be careful, as some of them have dubious intonation, so research helps here. You can find certain models from Martin within your budget every once in a while (excluding the ones with a big following, such as the Committee). Occasionally, you'll find a horn on Ebay that looks fine and nobody else is bidding on it, so you get it for a decent price. Unless you're willing to gamble, look for pictures of the valves (or ask the seller to send them to you if they weren't in the original listing) and ask the seller about the compression. Again, if you're patient and do your research (Google and the TH forums are invaluable here), you can find a wonderful instrument, especially if you are interested in trying a design that's a little different from what we normally find in modern horns. Most of the horns in my signature were bought off of Ebay or the TH Marketplace and they all make me very happy.
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royjohn
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello rmch,
Thanks for posting a more inclusive list than I did and also for mentioning what I left out...that patience is often important in finding what you want. This is true for most all listings on ebay and other classified sites and esp. for trumpets. It is also true, as you noted, that many of the vintage horns for sale will play brighter than most horns today, since they come from a time with a different tonal ideal. The Holton LB, a dark, copper belled horn and some of the Bueschers (I think) are exceptions to this, but it is generally true. I got a Vega peashooter off ebay years ago, a 0.410" bore, and Bill Jones turned it into a wonderful chamber Eb trumpet for me, so there's also that kind of option.

For the brighter horns, perhaps a different mpc will darken it some, but there are limits to this. A little research will go a long way and there are many posts and threads on TH and elsewhere which will lead you to horns which aren't mentioned much. It seems everyone wants a Bach or a Yamaha, but there are many horns out there that are overlooked treasures. I looked yesterday and there are 20 cornets and trumpets on my shelves and I don't think I paid more than $350 for any of them. Some required a valve rebuild or some de-denting and some did not. It's a great hobby for those so disposed, but you often cannot talk someone out of spending $1500 that they can't really afford to look for a vintage horn instead. Well, more for me and you, I guess!
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Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
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huntman10
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been buying up "vintage" horns since my first used horn purchase, an Olds Super trumpet, back about 1965 or so. One of the best, but my director was not in love with the overwhelming tone in our section. I probably averaged about 4 or 5 acquisitions a year once I got in college, in 1968. Then, in 1999, Y got on eBay with the intent of thinning out my stack of horns. Yeah, right! I have really been buying up horns since then!

Anyway, what you may find from this thread, is that one trumpet collectors treasure, is another collectors worst nightmare. If you were going to buy current production horns, you will find that about 90% of current "Pro" trumpets are based on getting as close to a Bach Strad as possible.

Don't get me wrong, I myself have a few Strads in the closet shelf, and when push comes to shove and I need to do something challenging in the municipal band, I drag one out. And I made my "bones" on the Strad ML 37 cornet (which is a really good trumpet, if you need it to be). But the vintage horns are quite different. The Connstellations, the various Olds top line (and even the Ambassador) horns, Selmers, Blessing Artist, Holtons, and the Getzen "Tone Balanced" trumpets were all very different from each other, it has been my experience.

And the cornets were REALLY different.

Of course, there are many exceptions to the Bach copies of today, particularly in the really premium "boutique" lines like the Taylors, Monettes, Harrelson, etc. But you aren't likely to see them in the $350 bin!

Anyway, I don't wish to discourage you, because the "trumpet safari" has been VERY exciting to me, in every way. Since I buy so many, I have to turn a few over. My wife has recently set a limit on my "accumultation" of brass instruments: 15 Bb trumpets, 15 odd key trumpets, 15 cornets, 15 odds and ends (pics, flugelhorns, bass trumpets), and no limit on the horns that I play at least once a year at church for special services (herald trumpet, mellophone, etc.) or for horns my amateur photographer daughter in law uses for kid photo props (miniature French horn, pocket trumpet, and slide trumpet). So I am only about 40 over my limit.

So, here is my suggestion for "sleepers". Trumpets: Olds Special with Brass Bell (not the Nickel Bronze in Trumpet, but love the cornet), King Flair (only the one from East Lake, if you can find one) or Liberty (small bore horn, usually, if you like that), Conn Victor 10B or 22B (also small bore horns), Getzen 700s can be a real treasure, Selmer (Paris) DeVille, the old post Mt Vernon Bach Mercedes with the Strad valveset (if you can spot one).

Cornets (these are more "American" cornets rather than the British style);
Olds Special, late Fullerton production with the mobile third slde and Nickel/Bronze bell flair, VERY rich tone horn, Conn, 76 Connquest Short Model cornet, large bore (0.484") with good tight bell, often less than $100, if you can find one that is in good shape, 38A short model Connstellation has not drawn a lot of money lately, also a large bore horn, REALLY powerful big workhorse of the 60's, Holton Stratodyne, another big bore cornet with gold brass bell. The Holton Super Collegiates with the red brass bells and nickel flairs are both players with surprisingly good tonal quality.

I would also caution to be wary and expect to spend a bit on getting any vintage horn professionally checked, and hold out for a good alignment. You have to assume when you get a horn with 60 year old felts and corks, things need some corrections.
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Man, how do you STORE all these instrument? You have a separate house?

As for vintage horn suggestions, here is an oddball idea that may be hard to come by in North America: Hüttl Silver Colibri 69 (this is the model number, not the year, though the horns date to the 60-70s). Has a 5.x inch nickel silver bell, very dark sound if played softly but can be very powerful when pushed. Pretty open horn for me. Great from combo to big band but also more „classical“ (broader sound) than my Bach 43. Because of the large bell it is reminiscent of a rotary trumpet (soundwise) but with more carrying power. I love the sound and bought mine cheap for 140 EUR not too long ago.

I have also seen a Selmer cornet for about your price range (forgot where) that I found interesting.

Maybe you can find a Blessing Artist cornet? I’d love to try one of these.
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deleted_user_687c31b
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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 12:45 am    Post subject: Re: Best vintage trumpet for $350? Reply with quote

Filius wrote:

I wanted to limit it to a "pro" model, but it seems like in my price range I'd be taking a chance on something that's not in great shape.


Recently picked up an Olds Ambassador for a friend for about 270 dollars. It was such a good player I almost kept it for myself. Originally the Ambassador was Olds’ student model but it plays a lot better than that. The trick is finding a good one though.
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel
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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 4:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Richard III wrote:
King Liberty if you shop hard enough, it will be there.


+1. I bought a Liberty about two years ago for $350. Very good condition with no dents but some silver wear (and the gold wash is pretty much all gone). Also has more of a vintage sound.
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dr_trumpet
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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you can find an Olds Studio or Olds Super, they can sometimes be had in that price range. I once had a Studio that I wish I had never sold...
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musicman2k
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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Buescher, Olds, Conn.
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Filius
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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really appreciate all the responses!

"For $350, it's unlikely that you'll find a horn in good condition that is NOW considered 'pro quality'. You might find older models that used to be 'pro quality', but I doubt they are still considered to be so."

Understood. My interest is less in "pro" horns than in vintage horns. People tend to sort them into pro, intermediate and student. We could just refer to them as Grade A, B and C. All I'm trying to say is that if I'm getting a vintage horn, I'd like to get the best quality I can afford, preferably a Grade A horn, but a Grade B may suffice if it's well thought of. And I may even be talked into a C.

---

Regarding 80A's, I'm looking at them closely. A couple that I've seen in my range are from the late 50s and 60s. Are those worth getting?

---

Question: Are good valves and good compression pretty much synonymous? I know they don't refer to exactly the same thing, but if the valves have minimal wear then can you count on the compression being decent?

---

Question: People have mentioned getting valve jobs done. What does that cost and what does it entail?

Thanks again!
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For a really good trumpet that isn’t too expensive, look at the Conn 22B, 1960s or earlier. NOT the newer ones. As for valve jobs, probably around $500 these days. Unless it’s a rare or valuable horn, it’s not worth the money to do it. You’re much better off buying an instrument that needs no expensive repairs.
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Subtropical and Subpar
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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Filius wrote:
Regarding 80A's, I'm looking at them closely. A couple that I've seen in my range are from the late 50s and 60s. Are those worth getting?"


Conn 80As made before the late 1950s take a different cornet mouthpiece shank than modern cornet mouthpieces. All Conn cornets made before the late 1950s, for that matter. Just something to be aware of. Conn Loyalist has a good explanation here: https://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/ConnArticle34.html

As the owner of a 38A Connstellation, I would advocate for getting one of them if you can. They've mostly been listed around $600 to $700 on the leading auction website lately.
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