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Adams A2 vs Bach Artisan New


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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chumpet wrote:
I just looked it up. This may have just got interesting. The Serial appears to be 307,907. The Con selmer site puts that in the early 1950s.

“1950-1955 305,001 - 340,000”

What does that mean?


Is that supposed to be the 180 or the 190? Hmm.... that doesn't look right at all.

Ok. I'm not a Bach expert like some of the folks on here. But...these are the Bach Serial Numbers.

https://www.bachloyalist.com/serial-numbers-trumpet/ or

https://www.bachbrass.com/resources/serial-numbers

Which would put yours in the late 1980's. Hmm....

Also, there's a troubling "40" hanging out above the serial number. Almost like a prefix. Bach Strad serial numbers don't have prefixes.

However, modern "Conn" trumpets from Conn Selmer do.

https://www.conn-selmer.com/en-us/resources/serial-numbers/cg-conn-instrument-serial-numbers

If you go down and look at 1990, there is a "prefix 40" series.

Also, I think some of the student horns have serial numbers like that.

These are the kind of mistakes that Chinese knockoff Bachs have in their details.

If it's the Artisan, then they have a unique serial number sequence, but it's on the front side on the top of the 2 piece valve casing on the middle valve and starts with an "A".

https://www.kesslerandsons.com/product/bach-artisan-trumpet-ab190/

Also, there's a big stamp that says "Built in Elkhart" or something like that on the back of the middle valve casing. There isn't other markings, like a serial number or "USA"

Also, is that a trigger on there? I had a Bach trigger on my cornet, that doesn't look quite right - maybe. If it's an Artisan, I don't think those come with triggers unless custom ordered.

So, basically, I don't think this is legit.
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RETrumpet
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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The trigger mechanism on the first slide looks like a UMI era King Silver Flare...
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Dayton
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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2021 12:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Bach 18037, 19037 ("Anniversary") and AB190 ("Artisan") are terrific horns. The prices you were quoted for the 18037 and 19037 are fantastic. I paid $2,300 for a new "straight from the factory" 19037 about 6 months ago and thought that was an excellent price.

I haven't played the redesigned A2, but I have played a number of Adams trumpets. They are well made instruments.

There is no way to tell which make/model is a better fit without trying them. If you cannot try before you buy, I'd say that the Bach -- particularly the 19037 -- is the safest bet, especially at that price! Good luck!
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austincustombrass
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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2021 5:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Winghorn wrote:
I would buy the Bach. They sound wonderful and so many professional trumpet players still use them, in spite of newer brands claiming to be "better" or "custom made".

I am sure Adams makes fine instruments, but Bach has withstood the test of time and is widely and successfully played by trumpeters of all experience and ability levels.

Everyone has an opinion, but some who offer theirs may not have that much experience or expertise on the trumpet. Most of the time on this forum you just don't know...

When someone says "Adams produces a higher quality product overall", that is just one person's opinion.

My suggestions are likewise my own and others will surely disagree. So-o-o-o, why not enlist the help of your teacher or other fine player in selecting an instrument?


Just an bit of added info here. Adams brass yes is relatively young (I was the first brass dealer in the US starting in 2010) but the Adams corporation has been around for over 50 years. They are also in it for the long haul.

Best regards,
T
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Chumpet
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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2021 5:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My picture was of my King Silver Flair. I don't have any Bachs on hand, and the ones I'm looking at are Brand New. The music store has to order them, so I"m waiting for some confirmations before I can move forward.

ACB helped me out and let me know they reset the serials in the 80s, which makes more sense. The physical characteristics matched what people were saying about the more recently made trumpets.
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Chumpet
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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2021 5:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

austincustombrass wrote:


Just an bit of added info here. Adams brass yes is relatively young (I was the first brass dealer in the US starting in 2010) but the Adams corporation has been around for over 50 years. They are also in it for the long haul.

Best regards,
T


Thank you for the reply. You and your team are the best!

Btw, This thread wasn't meant to contradict any information that was sent to me by your team. I was just trying to find a comparison of the two. You don't have an Artisan in stock to send a video to me showing the two, and with the price I was given for those Bachs, I wasn't sure what to do.

I'm still very heavily considering ordering that Adam A2. I just can't get them in at the same time. The Adams will take over a month to get in, and I don't know if the local guy will honor this price for that long.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2021 5:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The picture is of a 1990 King.
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tptva004
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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2021 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya gotta love advice here - we all wish there were more local shops to try a lot of horns, and then when someone actually wants to support a shop he's advised to buy used from a aprivate seller instead....

Moving on, i had the opportunity to try the adams 2a at the HR trumpet hang in 2019 and it was my favorite horn of the bunch and there were Schagerls, Carol, other Adams, a taylor horn, and BAC. Fantastic trumpet!

I like Bachs too, though i wood prefer one without the 25 mouthpipe. Let us now what you decide on please
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Brent
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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2021 7:34 am    Post subject: Horn Reply with quote

Hope it's alright to add some other suggestions:

- Adams also has a model called "Sonic" that's sold through Austin Custom Brass. That's a great price point for a horn with those features,

- I didn't see if the Yamaha Xeno line was mentioned, but they are fantastic. Whereas previous 'generations' of Xenos always seemed to have mixed reviews, the newest models are almost universally praised.

- Getzen. Their 3050 is a Bach 37 clone, and I believe features a 2 piece valve casing. Their Eterna Deluxe models also get rave reviews. Most gravitate towards the model with the copper bell, but I think the one with the sheet yellow brass bell might be more versatile.

Once you try Getzen valves, it's hard to go back to standard monel!
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adagiotrumpet
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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2021 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
This thread seems like "Jeep Grand Cherokee or Cadillac Escalade"

The Grand Cherokee is a heck if car, is pulling in more and more market share to Jeep, and is a rebel in the higher-end SUV market. The Adams A2 is a rebel with unique traits of its own, winning customers who like something a little different to the brand, fueling Trent's bottom line.

But a Cadillac is a Cadillac and a Bach is a Bach.


As an Adams flugelhorn owner and Bach trumpet owner, I find the above statements questionable. Also, as somewhat of a gear head, I find the car analogy particularly off mark.

The quality of workmanship and level of consistency from one horn to the next with Adams horns is well known. The Bauerfiend valves used in Adams horns are among the best in the world. I can't say the same for the Fiat/Chrysler motors stuffed into Jeeps.

Old School Euph in a later post admits to having played few Adams horns, but yet feels he is qualified to rate and compare them anyway. His claim that Bach has been very open with him and that Adams is very secretive is immaterial. The horns from both manufacturers speak for themselves and comparison of their strengths and/or weaknesses should not be based on how forthcoming the manufacturer is to the author.

While not advising the OP as to choose either the Adams or the Bach, I would only suggest that the claim that Adams horns are lower ranked "rebels" when compared to Bachs is patently wrong. And I say this as having over the past few years played most of the Adams trumpets as well as having been a Bach owner and player since the 1970's and who currently owns a New York, a Mount Vernon, and three Elkhart Bachs.

I find the Jeep/Cadillac analogy to be insulting to Adams in general, and the statement: "fueling Trent's bottom line" particularly insulting to Trent. Trent's reputation speaks for itself, and based on his posts, so does Old School Euph's.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2021 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My remark on the few Adams I have encountered was that I cannot fault them. How is that insulting them?

I just love having my words twisted or simply replaced here while trying to make useful observations, so here's one: I'm sorry you do not like the Jeep Grand Cherokee, but the sales volumes and FCA's last several years of public filings regarding profit margin show clearly that a large and growing number of people think you are wrong.

Jeep fuels FCA's bottom line because it is a quality, popular product with a unique identity in its segment. Trent's bottom line is fueled by the same in terms of the Adams line. I suspect Trent is quite proud of having chosen well. Why would he be insulted by acknowledgement of success?

You also choose to deny that I said:
"The best advice is to see what fits your daughter (or at least you) better - perhaps relying on more trained ears for advice in person too. But blind, playing the odds, there is no way I would not go Bach in that pairing. And you are asking us to judge with no hands-on with the horns, while it sounds like you have that option. You should be deciding based on that alone, not our advice."

My choice of Bach in the absence of useful information on how the horn fits the player, is because Bach-37 didn't become an architype by being a poor fit for "typical" people (if there is such a thing, but the middle of the bell curve in preferences), and because at that price, if its the wrong choice, it can be sold for as much or more as paid.

It's still far better to fit the horn to the player - who knows, it might be none of the above.
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Chumpet
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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2021 9:09 am    Post subject: Re: Horn Reply with quote

Brent wrote:
Hope it's alright to add some other suggestions:

- Adams also has a model called "Sonic" that's sold through Austin Custom Brass. That's a great price point for a horn with those features,

- I didn't see if the Yamaha Xeno line was mentioned, but they are fantastic. Whereas previous 'generations' of Xenos always seemed to have mixed reviews, the newest models are almost universally praised.

- Getzen. Their 3050 is a Bach 37 clone, and I believe features a 2 piece valve casing. Their Eterna Deluxe models also get rave reviews. Most gravitate towards the model with the copper bell, but I think the one with the sheet yellow brass bell might be more versatile.

Once you try Getzen valves, it's hard to go back to standard monel!


I was trying to avoid getting too bogged down like this guy on youtube who ordered/tested over 50 trumpets from all major brands, and about every line in those brands (ended up getting an Adams A4 for jazz soloist music). I don't want to get that granular. I was just hoping to find the best of the most recommended to be safe we'll not regret anything.

The ACB sales rep also told me he has gone through 4 Adam A2s due to people buying them on the spot at gigs after hearing it. I've not heard of people doing that for Bachs. Maybe they have..

I've heard Trent play the Sonic, and I do like the sound of it as well. For me, someone only planning to play for Church and in this college band (For fun, not going to school), I don't have to have as high end of a horn. However, I love some of the finishes on the Adams and I would love a custom one. The sonic is either Clear lacquer (which I do like, but I prefer the mat finishes), or Silver.
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Chumpet
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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2021 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Something concerning me from even the Bach owners in here is how many are telling me to test several due to the inconsistency of them. Since this local guy won't make any money on me, I don't think he'll be happy to order several extra or keep ordering because I find fault with one.

I've not heard of anybody saying they had to go through multiple Adam A (insert model) to find the right one, but it also isn't as known so not as many people have had their hands on one.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2021 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chumpet wrote:
Something concerning me from even the Bach owners in here is how many are telling me to test several due to the inconsistency of them. Since this local guy won't make any money on me, I don't think he'll be happy to order several extra or keep ordering because I find fault with one.

I've not heard of anybody saying they had to go through multiple Adam A (insert model) to find the right one, but it also isn't as known so not as many people have had their hands on one.


To find true substantial defect in a Bach these days is rare - though not that long ago (at least to an old guy), it was too common. Bach tries to be consistent where quality/durability is concerned, but to encourage some variation where the playing characteristics that result will appeal to one player more than another at the same time. The Bach "Artist Select" program is a manifestation of this where horns are identified by that artist as fitting his/her particular tastes - for buyers who know those are their preferences too (OK, and also as marketing to the ones who want anything tied to their favorite player)

This variability was something Bach embraced - far more than the company of today even - but makes the difference between a horn being a good fit for a player, and a perfect fit. You just have to bear in mind that what is perfect for one player may be a big deterrent for another when you get to that level of refinement. Players being egotists (face it, all of us who crave the stage naturally are), they then call horns "junk" that are not exactly what they like - because they know better than anyone else.

For anyone interested in more detail on the Bach concept of balancing consistency with variation, you can read this at my site from a few years ago: http://www.trumpet-history.com/Consistently%20unique.pdf
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Last edited by OldSchoolEuph on Fri May 14, 2021 4:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Brent
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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2021 11:46 am    Post subject: trumpet Reply with quote

Last "other" recommendation from me, I promise!

These are Carol trumpets. For that price, you'd be hard pressed to beat it, especially if Tony Scodwell tweaks it. I read people here advising against cheap Chinese knock off horns. The Carol company DOES NOT reflect that. Their build quality is on par with any horn maker, and their valves blocks are used by a number of horn makers. Plus, Kessler offers a trial policy.

I have Carol model with their 37 style bell, with that sterling silver lead pipe. It's far better than the Bach 37 I had way back when.

https://www.kesslerandsons.com/product/k-custom-professional-silver-trumpet/
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Chumpet
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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2021 1:11 pm    Post subject: Re: trumpet Reply with quote

Brent wrote:
Last "other" recommendation from me, I promise!

These are Carol trumpets. For that price, you'd be hard pressed to beat it, especially if Tony Scodwell tweaks it. I read people here advising against cheap Chinese knock off horns. The Carol company DOES NOT reflect that. Their build quality is on par with any horn maker, and their valves blocks are used by a number of horn makers. Plus, Kessler offers a trial policy.

I have Carol model with their 37 style bell, with that sterling silver lead pipe. It's far better than the Bach 37 I had way back when.

https://www.kesslerandsons.com/product/k-custom-professional-silver-trumpet/


I had considered Schiller as well. They have some old city trumpets that look like Monette clones. But at the end of the day, I want to know I didn't miss out by going with what professionals choose consistently.

I have a Schiller Euphonium I got for $650 used that looks great, and plays great. It is a Yamaha clone but feels very premium. But I don't play it professionally. I almost ordered a $600 old city schiller trumpet, but I didn't want my daughter dealing with that. I was told she is already going to be treated with less respect due to this being a mainly male field. She faced some of that at the Honor band. One of the older players suggested she didn't really earn that seat, but the band director clarified she sounded better than all the others. He wasn't happy about, but I'm told that is normal. Due to that, I also can't get any wild or neat custom trumpets due to standing out too much in a band(at least not while she is in school using it). I need to be careful I don't bring any more attention to her than she will get for likely outplaying older players (like that honor band).

I love the satin colors of Adams trumpets.
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Chumpet
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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2021 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0F3Ag1MGxY

Trent makes a lot of comments about this compared to Bachs. This is the main video I watched that made me strongly consider the A2 over the Bach. I just need someone to play them for me and let me hear the difference I guess.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2021 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chumpet wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0F3Ag1MGxY

Trent makes a lot of comments about this compared to Bachs. This is the main video I watched that made me strongly consider the A2 over the Bach. I just need someone to play them for me and let me hear the difference I guess.


While vastly better than just seeing which has more supporters, that solution still just tells you which of two good horns that player sounds better on, or says is easier for him/her to sound the same on. That does not mean that another player will feel the same.

A good player can play any good horn well - how hard they work at it determines what is the best horn for them. Much like the prospectus says: "Individual results may vary".
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2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
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1985 Yamaha YEP-621
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Brent
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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2021 7:38 am    Post subject: horn Reply with quote

Keep us posted about what you decide to go with. Any of the choices you're considering are good ones, IMO.


Brent S
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2021 12:52 pm    Post subject: Re: trumpet Reply with quote

Chumpet wrote:
My picture was of my King Silver Flair.


Well, that makes a lot more sense.

Chumpet wrote:
I had considered Schiller as well. They have some old city trumpets that look like Monette clones. But at the end of the day, I want to know I didn't miss out by going with what professionals choose consistently.


Skip the Schillers. I've had a few students with Schiller low brass, and they seem alright, but the trumpets I've seen look much better than they play.

Anyway, between Bachs and Adams, those are fine choices, honestly.
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