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Playing flat with slide all the way in


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dr_trumpet
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Argument deleted. Not worth it...
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The faster the air, the faster and higher pitched the buzz.


The buzz has frequency, not speed. Do you understand the difference?

Quote:
We use alterations of the aperture to balance the speed and direction of the airflow and maintain constant pitch.


We alter the aperture lip tension to control pitch. Looser/ relaxed produces a lower frequency pitch. Tighter/firmer produces higher pitch. The air flow velocity, ESPECIALLY somewhere other than through the lip aperture, can have no effect on pitch played.

These "visualizations" may serve as a metaphorical tool to engage embouchure and air pressure actions, but NO, there is literally no truth to that "airspeed = pitch" nonsense.

It is just stuff trumpet players hear and then repeat. Show me the study where air speed was actually measured and correlated to the pitch played.

Air speed varies within the system with time and location. So there is no "THE air speed".


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dr_trumpet
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Argument deleted. Not worth it...
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Dr. Albert L. Lilly, III DM
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Principal Trumpet, Hendricks Symphony (Avon, IN)
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Show me the study that proves any of your opinion.


I didn't make the claim. You did.

And the laws of physics re air flow velocities doe not require a study.
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's truly sad that this forum has been over run by amateurs and charlatans.
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It's truly sad that this forum has been over run by amateurs and charltans.


Who are you referring to?
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TrpPro
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The speed of the air passing through the lips determines how far the the lips will vibrate apart from themselves, not how fast they will vibrate. Faster air will cause the lips to move apart farther. This will cause the volume to increase. This can be visually seen as a larger aperture. The frequency or pitch (or how fast the lips are vibrating) will not change unless the tension, not the effort, in the lips changes.

The tension in the lips is determined by the muscles in the embouchure. Blowing faster air through the lips, which will increase the volume, requires more effort from the embouchure, but that doesn't mean that the lip tension is changing.
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dr_trumpet
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TrpPro wrote:
The speed of the air passing through the lips determines how far the the lips will vibrate apart from themselves, not how fast they will vibrate. Faster air will cause the lips to move apart farther. This will cause the volume to increase. This can be visually seen as a larger aperture. The frequency or pitch (or how fast the lips are vibrating) will not change unless the tension, not the effort, in the lips changes.

The tension in the lips is determined by the muscles in the embouchure. Blowing faster air through the lips, which will increase the volume, requires more effort from the embouchure, but that doesn't mean that the lip tension is changing.


I remember the old days of drum corps (G bugles, small mouthpieces) when players were so loud because the aperture they developed was so open, it could not be supported. This huge aperture setting caused the group to be flat on the pitch at the louder volumes. I remember working for a group one night, and the strobe said they were 40 cents flat at loudest dynamics, across the board. Loud as heck, but terribly flat. As the aperture enlarges, the potential for volume is enhanced, but if the relational distance top to bottom increases, an increase in air speed will help the buzz stay in tune. The "open" aperture can be too open to the point that sound is not created. This is simple physics.

Tension in the lips can reduce the vibrations and potential sound, hence why almost every great teacher I've observed mentions relaxation of the embouchure is important. I demonstrate this by asking students to play a G natural, then touch the left index finger to the corner of the mouth and kill the vibration (creating artificial tension). The sound is diminished with no other change (air, set, etc.) being made to the embouchure. Muscle tension can reduce the vibration potential in the embouchure, restricting it just as the finger in the above example mentions.

Set up a good embouchure, make the air a constant. Work and think about your sound and consistency of tone. Too much worry about minutia is what causes paralysis. Work for the product you want. If your sound is constrained or weak, work to develop a better sound concept. Constant air, solid embouchure set, diligent practice aiming for those goals.

I can go on and on, but won't because the thread has become confrontational and not informational, benefitting nobody.

AL
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dstpt
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had to make an embouchure change when I started college, and my pitch was very low for a considerable time. As my chops developed in the newer position/setting/function, I noticed more "life" or "vibrancy" began happening in my sound, and the pitch rose. Pretty soon I was not having to push my tuning slide in so much to get to A440. Something similar may be happening to the OP. My teacher encouraged me to increase the air speed slightly, which in turn encouraged the chops to "engage" more (slightly increased muscle tension/focus), and these factors, I believe, contributed to the development of getting more overtones in the sound and enabling me to "sit" on top of the pitch more in my playing. If the chops get too tight, then you'll have another set of issues, and it seems that so much of "developing our individual sound" can be a set of very subtle changes in our approach, beginning with concentrating on airflow. In my experience as student/teacher/performer, concentrating on the air movement tends to keep us from trying to micromanage facial muscle involvement that can lead to serious playing issues.

I do believe we are talking about a fairly complex system, and often it is difficult to find the words that will help a student (or ourselves) get better. Some may feel that pushing the air a little faster is the answer to some of this, and for them, that may be what they perceive is happening to get a change for the better. An increase in lip vibration would be necessary to get the pitch higher, even slightly higher on a given pitch, but helping someone develop that can be a challenge, since telling a student to do this or that with the lips can be so very different from one person to the next. Moving air is something we've done since we were born, which is why I think so many brass instructors prefer to address that to help encourage the subtle changes that need to happen elsewhere in the body, particularly the lips.
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Tpt_Guy
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 2:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Playing flat with slide all the way in Reply with quote

mike ansberry wrote:
I have been reveling in the improvements in my range and endurance. I posted in another forum that I am having trouble with my Olds Recording playing flat with the slide all the way in. This was a new development for me.

I have been working with tuning drones using Sibelius and ProTools today. Now I notice that it isn't just on the Recording. I am doing the same thing on my Super. I am playing with an embouchure that is relaxed in the center.

I am quite happy with the tone quality, range, and endurance with my new embouchure and accuracy is improving. But having to push up on the pitch constantly is pretty tedious.

Any ideas would be appreciated.


What's your sound concept?

I ask because back when I was first learning to play a C trumpet, I wanted a big, dark Bb sound out of it. I never could understand how the thing was so flat. I even had a repair tech start chopping tubing off of it. My teacher told me to get rid if it, and then I was utterly flabbergasted when he picked it up and with all that tubing gone it played sharp for him. But, I still blamed the horn. It wasn't until I mentioned my sound goals to my teacher and he asked, "Why do do you want your C to sound like a Bb?" that I realized I miiiight be doing something wrong.

After realizing I needed to let the instrument play and sound as it is built and not force it I stopped having difficulties, and drastic pitch problems went away.
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dr_trumpet wrote:
TrpPro wrote:
The speed of the air passing through the lips determines how far the the lips will vibrate apart from themselves, not how fast they will vibrate. Faster air will cause the lips to move apart farther. This will cause the volume to increase. This can be visually seen as a larger aperture. The frequency or pitch (or how fast the lips are vibrating) will not change unless the tension, not the effort, in the lips changes.

The tension in the lips is determined by the muscles in the embouchure. Blowing faster air through the lips, which will increase the volume, requires more effort from the embouchure, but that doesn't mean that the lip tension is changing.


I remember the old days of drum corps (G bugles, small mouthpieces) when players were so loud because the aperture they developed was so open, it could not be supported. This huge aperture setting caused the group to be flat on the pitch at the louder volumes. I remember working for a group one night, and the strobe said they were 40 cents flat at loudest dynamics, across the board. Loud as heck, but terribly flat. As the aperture enlarges, the potential for volume is enhanced, but if the relational distance top to bottom increases, an increase in air speed will help the buzz stay in tune. The "open" aperture can be too open to the point that sound is not created. This is simple physics.

Tension in the lips can reduce the vibrations and potential sound, hence why almost every great teacher I've observed mentions relaxation of the embouchure is important. I demonstrate this by asking students to play a G natural, then touch the left index finger to the corner of the mouth and kill the vibration (creating artificial tension). The sound is diminished with no other change (air, set, etc.) being made to the embouchure. Muscle tension can reduce the vibration potential in the embouchure, restricting it just as the finger in the above example mentions.

Set up a good embouchure, make the air a constant. Work and think about your sound and consistency of tone. Too much worry about minutia is what causes paralysis. Work for the product you want. If your sound is constrained or weak, work to develop a better sound concept. Constant air, solid embouchure set, diligent practice aiming for those goals.

I can go on and on, but won't because the thread has become confrontational and not informational, benefitting nobody.

AL


Correct. It's all about cause and effect. The engineers here are so focused on the trees they can't see the forest.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 'written word' can be insufficient for describing the feelings of what is happening when we play. Primarily because people have difference sensations, and interpretation of the sensations.

Particularly the feelings of lip 'tension', 'compression', 'rolling', 'air flow', 'air flow direction', 'resistance to air flow', 'air speed through the aperture', 'internal air pressure', and 'air quantity through the aperture'.

My 'unified theory of pitch control' include these ideas -
Air Speed sensation - the 'speed' is controlled and adjusted by manipulating the aperture's resistance to air flow, and the internal air pressure. The aperture manipulation for resistance results in the lip flexibility adjustment to enable the lips to vibrate/pulsate at the desired pitch when the appropriate internal air pressure is available.

Basically I feel that most players with a 'good functioning embouchure' actually PERFORM similar physical actions, but their sensory feelings cause them to determine (and describe) the 'cause and effect' in different ways.
edit - I was composing this response and had not seen "Billy B" mention of 'cause and effect' - and I do agree with his post.
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Tension in the lips can reduce the vibrations and potential sound, hence why almost every great teacher I've observed mentions relaxation of the embouchure is important


All players, ALL, including the very best. MUST tension the lips muscles to control the pitch. There is a CRAFT of embouchure function that produces the best and most musical tone. Excessive embouchure tension FOR THAT PITCH will yield poor results for sure. Just as inadequate tension
("relaxation") will yield a flat tone or even a lower partial than intended.

With good skill development one can execute the OPTIMUM lip tension with the least effort. "Tension is bad" is just another thing trumpet players like to say, all while every single one uses it to play.

But so many approaches, such as lip buzzing, free buzzing etc, encourage excessive tension AND excessive effort to achieve said excessive tension.

Some confuse "air speed" with air flow or air pressure. Some just use the term because it is trendy among trumpet teachers.

Quote:
Too much worry about minutia is what causes paralysis.


Wait, YOU brought up "air speed" and "simple physics" right?
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What are "lip muscles"?
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Jaw04
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Billy B wrote:
What are "lip muscles"?
Google is your friend
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaw04 wrote:
Billy B wrote:
What are "lip muscles"?
Google is your friend


I want to know which muscles K considers lip muscles
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dr_trumpet
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
Quote:
Tension in the lips can reduce the vibrations and potential sound, hence why almost every great teacher I've observed mentions relaxation of the embouchure is important


All players, ALL, including the very best. MUST tension the lips muscles to control the pitch. There is a CRAFT of embouchure function that produces the best and most musical tone. Excessive embouchure tension FOR THAT PITCH will yield poor results for sure. Just as inadequate tension
("relaxation") will yield a flat tone or even a lower partial than intended.

With good skill development one can execute the OPTIMUM lip tension with the least effort. "Tension is bad" is just another thing trumpet players like to say, all while every single one uses it to play.

But so many approaches, such as lip buzzing, free buzzing etc, encourage excessive tension AND excessive effort to achieve said excessive tension.

Some confuse "air speed" with air flow or air pressure. Some just use the term because it is trendy among trumpet teachers.

Quote:
Too much worry about minutia is what causes paralysis.


Wait, YOU brought up "air speed" and "simple physics" right?


You put words into my mouth fight over minutia and question reasonable terminology as if you have never heard of it. Of course, I am talking about excess tension. It is insulting to assume I meant anything else and places a viewpoint in my words that is neither there nor implied.

Your replies are the worst of the worst as they argue minutia of concept over trying to get someone moving in the right direction. Embouchure alone creates pitch is without a doubt the most ridiculous statement I think I have ever heard, aside from perhaps your statement that air doesn't affect pitch, or aperture doesn't affect pitch. I've heard high note jazz enthusiasts who come up with that idea and then ask them to play in the lower register and frequently they cannot. They split notes, cannot support the lower register because they try and do it all with the embouchure, and then question when it fails and say others are wrong.

In the Adam method (as an example), we don't free buzz or buzz the mouthpiece or any of the other elements you also tried to pin on my post with your deceptive manipulation that confuses those interested in real knowledge. We do create a buzz with the leadpipe and mouthpiece in combination with a relaxed embouchure, and work easier, using the resistance of the tightest part of the horn to create the sound. Sound is still the goal.

And yet, there are those who do use the mouthpiece buzzing or free buzzing, players such as James Thompson and many others do espouse free buzzing and mouthpiece buzzing as vital. So your statement would tell these world-class players and teachers they are all wrong. What works for one does not work for all, so knowledge of multiple approaches can be of benefit. For example, I tried Caruso, and it made my embouchure stiff. It did not work for me but has for MANY. Is Caruso wrong? Nope. Am I wrong? Nope. There are many ways to create success, and insisting on a single method as the be all, end all does nothing for anyone. Attacking others just alienates.

I was a student of several of the finest teachers, and have an accomplished resumé in performance and pedagogy. My students are widely recognized for their abilities and are respected musicians and pedagogues of their own achievement. Never have they been at an issue with air, embouchure or range, as we learned to concentrate on the qualities of what you produce, ignoring arguments like this.

I responded to the original poster with a suggestion of what might work as a fifth or sixth-level solution, as many superb suggestions had already been offered to them and it had yet to improve for the player. But you put the elements in as if I suggested they were appropriate for all players, in all circumstances, at all times. Some of the concepts are (consistency of tone dictated by a consistent, constant level of support, for example), and those ideas are rooted still in the product of tone concept coming from the mind first, and hearing what is in your head and matching it. (Arnold Jacob discusses the concept developing first in the mind, then applied to the instrument. I think he calls it the "silver tuba" in his head.

I've written more than I planned, and hope someone gets something out of this. If not, I apologize for the long posting. Thanks to many for your private messages in support of my posts here in this thread.

Play the trumpet. Develop a great concept of your own sound, then work to achieve that sound. Develop a consistent approach to air intake and support of the sound in all ranges. As Jacob would say, "wind and song".

All my best,

AL
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mike ansberry
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey, Dr. Lilly. I practiced long tones with a tuner last night. I noticed that my tongue was farther back in my mouth than it was with the old embouchure. I moved to a more forward position and the pitch came up.

I am not really concerned about the physics involved in why it worked.

I will continue to work with these exercises until it becomes normal for me again. I hope I continue to have success with it.

Thanks, Dr. Lilly!
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dr_trumpet
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mike ansberry wrote:
Hey, Dr. Lilly. I practiced long tones with a tuner last night. I noticed that my tongue was farther back in my mouth than it was with the old embouchure. I moved to a more forward position and the pitch came up.

I am not really concerned about the physics involved in why it worked.

I will continue to work with these exercises until it becomes normal for me again. I hope I continue to have success with it.

Thanks, Dr. Lilly!


Friend, that is thrilling for me! I am happy for you! Keep going on what is working! Please keep me updated!

All my best,

Al
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Principal Trumpet, Hendricks Symphony (Avon, IN)
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 8:10 pm    Post subject: playing flat with the slide all the way in..... Reply with quote

As actor Gary Oldman said in the movie "The Professional' about a generation ago, "Bingo." found it.
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